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Post by swarm492 on Jul 10, 2020 15:55:01 GMT
Title says it all.
Had a conversation with a friend this morning and we couldnt really come up with a good reason why a Cult player would want to take advantage of these. Am I missing something?
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Jul 10, 2020 17:45:34 GMT
They are expensive, (points) all the guns are Heavy in an army with 24" Mining Weapons, they have a 4+ (most AT being -3) and give the opponent a juicy profile for their otherwise useless AT guns. GSC did all infantry quite well in 8th until Astartes 2.0. Now it is just waiting for 9th to bail out the Forces of the Hive Mind.
I will be picking up my 3rd to round out a Brigade (Rockgrinders) but I don't expect any of the Cult Vehicles to get much life out of 9th from the previews.
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Post by kurtangle2 on Jul 10, 2020 18:12:53 GMT
They are expensive, (points) all the guns are Heavy in an army with 24" Mining Weapons, they have a 4+ (most AT being -3) and give the opponent a juicy profile for their otherwise useless AT guns. GSC did all infantry quite well in 8th until Astartes 2.0. Now it is just waiting for 9th to bail out the Forces of the Hive Mind. I will be picking up my 3rd to round out a Brigade (Rockgrinders) but I don't expect any of the Cult Vehicles to get much life out of 9th from the previews. Rockgrinders can be viable if made CHEAP, Trucks on the other hand are complete (please do not swear) |
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 16, 2020 20:04:15 GMT
9th Edition will be big on holding objectives. Transport + Obsec combinations will be the most popular and possibly the most effective ways of doing it. That aside, they are all now hitting on 4+ instead of 5+, adding a solid 4 shots of Autocannon which will be buffed alongside a Jackal Alphus possibly. Guys in Open Topped transports now also get buffs the Transport gets, meaning your Mining Laser dudes inside also get your modifiers while being safe from bolter fire.
The only thing really holding Trucks back from being any good is that they're too expensive. From memory, 133pts for Truck + Cannons? If we are straddling 80pts-90pts for total package, I think it'd see play in the new edition.
Rockgrinders on the other hand - not much going for them, although I think they got a new evasive manuvers kind of strategem to help them make combat alive. Their Mining Lasers config is ok, but why arent you just using Ridgerunners? The other 2 weapon configs arent great, and even if you hit combat you're hitting on 5s unless you Primus in, which is MAYBE doable but very weird and probably inefficient. Their main carrying passengers would be Abberrants too, which have been pretty heavily points nerfed over 2 patches that it's not the best idea to actually bring them around. If it hit on a 3+ in melee, then I'd say it probably is a decent contender since its combat stat is actually pretty cool.
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Post by kwisatzhaderach on Jul 16, 2020 21:21:14 GMT
Goliath Trucks are 85 points in the new edition.
Their biggest asset is they can carry one of the most points-efficient units in the game: Rock Saw Acolytes.
If you advance them forward on T1, then on T2 you can seriously pressure the midfield and your opponent's deployment zone.
People underestimate them but I think they are quite good. Plus, once you have disembarked the Acolytes, they can hold down the objective.
If you run several of them along with Ridge Runners, it's just too many vehicle profiles for an opponent to adequately handle.
I have already played a game of 9th with them and they performed admirably. I have to imagine that they will be the way forward. Other top GSC players are quite impressed with their performance too. You don't have to follow the leaders if you don't want. Personally, I thought was going to lose miserably with them since they cost a decent amount. Yet the Goliath Trucks were in many ways the MVPs of the game.
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Post by kurtangle2 on Jul 16, 2020 22:05:11 GMT
Goliath Trucks are 85 points in the new edition. Their biggest asset is they can carry one of the most points-efficient units in the game: Rock Saw Acolytes. If you advance them forward on T1, then on T2 you can seriously pressure the midfield and your opponent's deployment zone. People underestimate them but I think they are quite good. Plus, once you have disembarked the Acolytes, they can hold down the objective. If you run several of them along with Ridge Runners, it's just too many vehicle profiles for an opponent to adequately handle. I have already played a game of 9th with them and they performed admirably. I have to imagine that they will be the way forward. Other top GSC players are quite impressed with their performance too. You don't have to follow the leaders if you don't want. Personally, I thought was going to lose miserably with them since they cost a decent amount. Yet the Goliath Trucks were in many ways the MVPs of the game. Acolytes in Truck are absolutely (please do not swear). Neophytes in Trucks with 1/2 Alphuses is a very strong mobile Antivehicle platform that: 1) Keep the Neophytes numbers intact 2) Add 12" to all Neophytes weapons, effectively making them 36" 3) Maintain all the relevant bonuses you need (Alphus +1 to Hit is the only thing you need) 4) Takes/contest objectives and forces your opponent to destroy both the Truck AND the passenger which would otherwise still be there My take would be 6 Trucks + 60 Neophytes with 2 Mining Laser and 2 Grenade Launchers for 1050 pts: not super cheap but you're now only taking Deep striking acolytes with their support chars and perhaps few Ridgerunners to have a super mobile army that can swarm the board from multiple sides while giving away 0 different targets |
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Post by kwisatzhaderach on Jul 16, 2020 22:28:48 GMT
Goliath Trucks are 85 points in the new edition. Their biggest asset is they can carry one of the most points-efficient units in the game: Rock Saw Acolytes. If you advance them forward on T1, then on T2 you can seriously pressure the midfield and your opponent's deployment zone. People underestimate them but I think they are quite good. Plus, once you have disembarked the Acolytes, they can hold down the objective. If you run several of them along with Ridge Runners, it's just too many vehicle profiles for an opponent to adequately handle. I have already played a game of 9th with them and they performed admirably. I have to imagine that they will be the way forward. Other top GSC players are quite impressed with their performance too. You don't have to follow the leaders if you don't want. Personally, I thought was going to lose miserably with them since they cost a decent amount. Yet the Goliath Trucks were in many ways the MVPs of the game. Acolytes in Truck are absolutely (please do not swear). Neophytes in Trucks with 1/2 Alphuses is a very strong mobile Antivehicle platform that: 1) Keep the Neophytes numbers intact 2) Add 12" to all Neophytes weapons, effectively making them 36" 3) Maintain all the relevant bonuses you need (Alphus +1 to Hit is the only thing you need) 4) Takes/contest objectives and forces your opponent to destroy both the Truck AND the passenger which would otherwise still be there My take would be 6 Trucks + 60 Neophytes with 2 Mining Laser and 2 Grenade Launchers for 1050 pts: not super cheap but you're now only taking Deep striking acolytes with their support chars and perhaps few Ridgerunners to have a super mobile army that can swarm the board from multiple sides while giving away 0 different targets Have you actually used this list in 9th or is this just theorycrafting? Because I can tell you firsthand that Acolytes in a truck work. I don't like relying as much on Perfect Ambush since now we can't reroll the D6 value. But if anything, we both agree that Goliath Trucks in 9th do work. Pending further codices, they will probably be the meta list for GSC. |
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Post by kurtangle2 on Jul 16, 2020 22:46:23 GMT
Acolytes in Truck are absolutely (please do not swear). Neophytes in Trucks with 1/2 Alphuses is a very strong mobile Antivehicle platform that: 1) Keep the Neophytes numbers intact 2) Add 12" to all Neophytes weapons, effectively making them 36" 3) Maintain all the relevant bonuses you need (Alphus +1 to Hit is the only thing you need) 4) Takes/contest objectives and forces your opponent to destroy both the Truck AND the passenger which would otherwise still be there My take would be 6 Trucks + 60 Neophytes with 2 Mining Laser and 2 Grenade Launchers for 1050 pts: not super cheap but you're now only taking Deep striking acolytes with their support chars and perhaps few Ridgerunners to have a super mobile army that can swarm the board from multiple sides while giving away 0 different targets Have you actually used this list in 9th or is this just theorycrafting? Because I can tell you firsthand that Acolytes in a truck work. I don't like relying as much on Perfect Ambush since now we can't reroll the D6 value. But if anything, we both agree that Goliath Trucks in 9th do work. Pending further codices, they will probably be the meta list for GSC. Played 1 game and they were so far very very good. Acolytes in trucks are the quintessential "pay for abilities that you freely have" without any added benefit (thanks to that 9" stratagem limitation). |
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Post by hivemind03 on Jul 17, 2020 1:27:25 GMT
Is this army going to have much of an advantage over others doing a similar strategy of transport rushing the objectives? Like Drukhari in raider and venoms or Marines in floating rhinos.
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 17, 2020 8:44:10 GMT
Ref Acolytes - you can DS them with 7" rerollable for much more consistent results than base or disembark from Truck. PA not necessary.
Trucks best value as far as I can see is carrying anti tank Neophytes as cheap expendible holders, I think they lose a lot of value carrying Acolytes over Neophytes unless we can take it without the guns.
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Post by Gunnerside on Jul 17, 2020 9:26:27 GMT
Ref Acolytes - you can DS them with 7" rerollable for much more consistent results than base or disembark from Truck. PA not necessary. Trucks best value as far as I can see is carrying anti tank Neophytes as cheap expendible holders, I think they lose a lot of value carrying Acolytes over Neophytes unless we can take it without the guns. That does not hold up as well in 9th as it did in 8th, in my opinion. Coherency changes makes it harder to get all relevant buffs while still being in engagement range, and not being able to reroll perfect ambush move roll also hurts a lot. I think Twisted Helix Acolytes in trucks might be interesting, especially with their +2 to advance and the PA advance and charge strat, which might make them more reliable to get in to close combat, and getting their natural +1 str buff without relic banner. Support characters like Clamavus and Primus could be deep struck in support range if needed. Having said that, I also think Neophytes in trucks are really good for objective holding, but this should not be an either/or discussion. Go for both. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 17, 2020 16:23:37 GMT
Ref Acolytes - you can DS them with 7" rerollable for much more consistent results than base or disembark from Truck. PA not necessary. Trucks best value as far as I can see is carrying anti tank Neophytes as cheap expendible holders, I think they lose a lot of value carrying Acolytes over Neophytes unless we can take it without the guns. That does not hold up as well in 9th as it did in 8th, in my opinion. Coherency changes makes it harder to get all relevant buffs while still being in engagement range, and not being able to reroll perfect ambush move roll also hurts a lot. I think Twisted Helix Acolytes in trucks might be interesting, especially with their +2 to advance and the PA advance and charge strat, which might make them more reliable to get in to close combat, and getting their natural +1 str buff without relic banner. Support characters like Clamavus and Primus could be deep struck in support range if needed. Having said that, I also think Neophytes in trucks are really good for objective holding, but this should not be an either/or discussion. Go for both. Sadly it's always a either/or discussion, because you cant feasibly field 8 Trucks (4/4) with other more important support functions, and these kinds of troops need some kind of minimum critical mass to be effective. Unless you do a 3/2 kind of thing, and hope that's enough (ie, no critical mass, or the lesser one is more tactical/utility). Perfect Ambush is a nonfactor - 7" rr charge means you dont need to waste Perfect Ambush on it. I'd rather keep PA for a shooty unit or a Sanctus/Kellermorph at this point. PA charge was only a must for Abberrants. Your buffs *CAN* mostly reach 9" or are irrelevant in some form after combat is made. I'm more concerned about retaining the characters after the drop since Character Protection is 3" now - someone brought up to me that maybe losing the characters isnt as big a deal, so that begs some trials and theorycrafting. The Double or Triple Acolyte 7" rr drop holds up better in 9th than it did in 8th, which is the main reason I am considering it. Multicharge is nerfed, Overwatch is nerfed, and Hostage is nerfed, which are all hallmarks of things that encourage the 3 unit drop and charge, basically spreading out your impact at the same time and taking many more things out of the fight at once. Considering it's a combat charge, your units are pretty bunched up so Coherency is like almost a nonfactor, and getting a 6" buff is not actually that hard if you spend some time to look into arrangement. hivemind03 unfortunately I dont think this army will have an advantage in that specific tactic, but we'll have a bit of an advantage in defensive profiles, since a lascannon shot into a Primaris marine is still a way better kill than a Lascannon into a Neophyte, and the game will require armies to be pretty tanky in some way thereby increasing the effectiveness of our gun profiles. Saws, Neophytes with double Lasers, Ridgerunners, and Autocannons all made out pretty big in the new edition in my opinion just because of the profile of targets coming out. Honestly if Neophytes could take double Autocannons I probably would seriously consider it now haha... |
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Post by Gunnerside on Jul 17, 2020 20:41:27 GMT
That does not hold up as well in 9th as it did in 8th, in my opinion. Coherency changes makes it harder to get all relevant buffs while still being in engagement range, and not being able to reroll perfect ambush move roll also hurts a lot. I think Twisted Helix Acolytes in trucks might be interesting, especially with their +2 to advance and the PA advance and charge strat, which might make them more reliable to get in to close combat, and getting their natural +1 str buff without relic banner. Support characters like Clamavus and Primus could be deep struck in support range if needed. Having said that, I also think Neophytes in trucks are really good for objective holding, but this should not be an either/or discussion. Go for both. Sadly it's always a either/or discussion, because you cant feasibly field 8 Trucks (4/4) with other more important support functions, and these kinds of troops need some kind of minimum critical mass to be effective. Unless you do a 3/2 kind of thing, and hope that's enough (ie, no critical mass, or the lesser one is more tactical/utility). Perfect Ambush is a nonfactor - 7" rr charge means you dont need to waste Perfect Ambush on it. I'd rather keep PA for a shooty unit or a Sanctus/Kellermorph at this point. PA charge was only a must for Abberrants. Your buffs *CAN* mostly reach 9" or are irrelevant in some form after combat is made. I'm more concerned about retaining the characters after the drop since Character Protection is 3" now - someone brought up to me that maybe losing the characters isnt as big a deal, so that begs some trials and theorycrafting. The Double or Triple Acolyte 7" rr drop holds up better in 9th than it did in 8th, which is the main reason I am considering it. Multicharge is nerfed, Overwatch is nerfed, and Hostage is nerfed, which are all hallmarks of things that encourage the 3 unit drop and charge, basically spreading out your impact at the same time and taking many more things out of the fight at once. Considering it's a combat charge, your units are pretty bunched up so Coherency is like almost a nonfactor, and getting a 6" buff is not actually that hard if you spend some time to look into arrangement.[...] Regarding number of trucks: You do not need to put every Neophyte squad in a truck imo. I’m thinking more a long the lines of 1-2 Neo squads in trucks on deployment, while the rest are put in deep strike (for later objective grabbing & vehicle/monster sniping with MLs). I share your concern with character protection though, but that is also why some of the Neos should be in deep strike, as they can be deployed as a character screen if needed. I plan on using 2 trucks for Acolyte squads, so that should in total be 3-4 trucks across the army. Regarding going FAE: the average roll of 2d6+2 is 9, so I am assuming you would need a Clamavus in addition to make 9” charges w reroll more reliable. In addition, my other concern is that you would need at least +1 strenght for your rock saws to wound T8 on 3s/2S) with strat) with the new rules for adding up strength buffs. I honestly have not tested too much yet with the new coherency rules, but I hope you are right that 10 man squads can comfortably get within 6” auras while being effective in cc. The way I see it, FAE has the perks of providing Vect and a way to not needing trucks for Acolytes, while on the down side requiring a relic/buff to reliably get to strenght 9 om rock saws, while Twisted Helix rock saws can get to strenght 9 without buff, and without Clamavus and Iconward, but you probably need trucks and lose out on Vect. Not sure what I like the best just yet, but I will probably try out both approaches. |
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Post by gorsameth on Jul 17, 2020 22:16:25 GMT
Sadly it's always a either/or discussion, because you cant feasibly field 8 Trucks (4/4) with other more important support functions, and these kinds of troops need some kind of minimum critical mass to be effective. Unless you do a 3/2 kind of thing, and hope that's enough (ie, no critical mass, or the lesser one is more tactical/utility). Perfect Ambush is a nonfactor - 7" rr charge means you dont need to waste Perfect Ambush on it. I'd rather keep PA for a shooty unit or a Sanctus/Kellermorph at this point. PA charge was only a must for Abberrants. Your buffs *CAN* mostly reach 9" or are irrelevant in some form after combat is made. I'm more concerned about retaining the characters after the drop since Character Protection is 3" now - someone brought up to me that maybe losing the characters isnt as big a deal, so that begs some trials and theorycrafting. The Double or Triple Acolyte 7" rr drop holds up better in 9th than it did in 8th, which is the main reason I am considering it. Multicharge is nerfed, Overwatch is nerfed, and Hostage is nerfed, which are all hallmarks of things that encourage the 3 unit drop and charge, basically spreading out your impact at the same time and taking many more things out of the fight at once. Considering it's a combat charge, your units are pretty bunched up so Coherency is like almost a nonfactor, and getting a 6" buff is not actually that hard if you spend some time to look into arrangement.[...] Regarding number of trucks: You do not need to put every Neophyte squad in a truck imo. I’m thinking more a long the lines of 1-2 Neo squads in trucks on deployment, while the rest are put in deep strike (for later objective grabbing & vehicle/monster sniping with MLs). I share your concern with character protection though, but that is also why some of the Neos should be in deep strike, as they can be deployed as a character screen if needed. I plan on using 2 trucks for Acolyte squads, so that should in total be 3-4 trucks across the army. Regarding going FAE: the average roll of 2d6+2 is 9, so I am assuming you would need a Clamavus in addition to make 9” charges w reroll more reliable. In addition, my other concern is that you would need at least +1 strenght for your rock saws to wound T8 on 3s/2S) with strat) with the new rules for adding up strength buffs. I honestly have not tested too much yet with the new coherency rules, but I hope you are right that 10 man squads can comfortably get within 6” auras while being effective in cc. The way I see it, FAE has the perks of providing Vect and a way to not needing trucks for Acolytes, while on the down side requiring a relic/buff to reliably get to strenght 9 om rock saws, while Twisted Helix rock saws can get to strenght 9 without buff, and without Clamavus and Iconward, but you probably need trucks and lose out on Vect. Not sure what I like the best just yet, but I will probably try out both approaches. sadly 2's are now impossible as the recently leaked Tournament rules strait up ban specialist detachments and with that the Draw Blood strat. |
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Post by Gunnerside on Jul 17, 2020 22:35:45 GMT
... And rerollable charges since the Iconward field commander is gone, ouch. Guess that means I’ll be running Twisted Helix most likely.
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