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Post by niiai on Jun 8, 2020 11:53:56 GMT
My usual opponent is an ork. Neather of us are super competetive.
He usualy brings: - A battlewagon with hardcase, roller and the new buff from saga of the beast. - Morkanaut with sparkly bits. - A small car with freebotars in. - A psyker with da jump. - And so many boys!
It might just be that I am bad, but I find orks to be a very natural counter to nids. Boys are just so good, and they have the powerclaw. Lots and lots of boys and T8. Excatly what I do not want to meet. We winn on and off about the same, but after saga of the beast came out I am having big problems as the sparkly bits in the morkanaut and the shooting from the freebotars (with 36 range because of stratagem) is just really brutal. And the boys usualy make their charge turn one, or I have to deploy as though they should do.
Usualy I run out of high AP weapons. Genstealers are often bad as boys are just better point for point. And if I charge two things he will just use the fight now stratagem from the base rulebook.
I do not have a tyranofex with rupture cannon (only flamer) and no exoshrine. I have 6 hiveguards, and I have branched into GSC to get some laser weapons: Neophyte squads, and ridgerunners. I also have a small unit with mining weapons but I often find my opponent has acidentaly screened with a combination of units and or terain. Last game the damn airplane was in the way, as well as some boys.
Advice in general would be apreciated. I really feel like this is such a hard matchup. He usualy gets turn one because of fever drops then me, and after saga of the beast that turn one has started to hurt a lot!
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jun 8, 2020 13:00:27 GMT
Out of curiosity, do you and your friend allow for proxying? If so and you want to try a rupture cannon, simply run your tyrannofex as though it had a rupture cannon.
Are you playing with power level or with points?
The key to facing orks is delay delay delay. You need to delay when they'll be hitting you with their inevitable charge. Delaying allows you to thin their ranks further before they hit you. You could also try to run some flamer pyrovores out as screens so his da jump will only allow them to charge the pyrovores. You the heroically intervene if they make the charge or counter charge for cleanup.
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Post by niiai on Jun 8, 2020 13:18:56 GMT
Yeah we cna proxy.
We use points. Power levels are not very good.
It is very hard to delay the ork. Da jump comes in on demand. (And green tide later on.) Also, he has very good range on his weapons. Just as good range as me. How many turns do you sugest stalling? In the meantime he will be getting points all over.
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 8, 2020 13:33:59 GMT
You do *not* stall against Orks. Stalling is against armies that can't score well and need to blast you to bits to win (or you're waiting for your powerspike).
Setup expecting to go 2nd against Orks. Genestealers are exceptionally good against them - charge two units, concentrate all hits into one, then combo into the 2nd. You trade 20GS for 60 Boys, that's considered a good trade.
Hide your HG against Lootas, keep them safe T1 from DA Jump and shooting if you can. HG will help you win the game once T3 sets in.
Against Orks (Nids/GSC in general) we're all about the trade. Force advantageous trades for us, and we'll start to carry the game in T4. Bad trades early on means we lose faster.
For the Lootas in a truck you don't have a choice, you need to break the Trukk, once they're out you can tag em to stop the pain. So you have to find a way to shoot it down. Exocrene in a pod works wonders.
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Post by LordPathos on Jun 8, 2020 14:17:16 GMT
You know what has the potential to hit 20 orks and kill 20 orks per shooting phase? TWICE?!
USE THE FLESHBORER HIVE!!!
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Post by Bohxim on Jun 8, 2020 14:38:29 GMT
You know what has the potential to hit 20 orks and kill 20 orks per shooting phase? TWICE?! USE THE FLESHBORER HIVE!!! Man, thank you lord pathos! That comment seriously made my day If you ask me, it sounds like warriors are super against orks. A full squad with a prime has 7x3 shots of death spitters and 3 cannons yet has the foot print and melee capabilities to murder a whole bunch back. Can always use the lash whips if worried about them dying first, but boneswords for me always. Throw in the ignore ap 1 and 2, sounds like a really good counter to all the orks if you ask me
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Post by asvic on Jun 8, 2020 15:23:37 GMT
If you fear da jump, consider the GSC sniper.
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Post by niiai on Jun 8, 2020 15:30:41 GMT
The sniper is great. Depending on terain performance may wary. Last time he could hide behind a hill. No shooting possible. He shot 2 boys all game. The time before that I got first blood in his movement phase. High warianse.
I have not had so good luck with genstealers vs orks, so I am supriced you sugest it. In my experience there are several factors that make them bad:
1: The ork will usualy deal damage to them with shooting whenever possible, as they are an easy target. 2: Charging most things will trigger overwatch. Charging boys shurly will mean some dead GS. 3: While GS are a great surgical tool the orks just do not give a damn. If I charge a group of 30 boys I rarly wipe them out, and then I get losses on the backswing. An ork costs 6 points, a genestealer cost 12. I have a hard time getting the math to work out in our favour. 4: It is hard to find targets for genstealers. T8 is not ideal. 30 boys is not ideal. And spending 20 genstealers in non juicy targets is also not ideal.
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 8, 2020 16:11:55 GMT
Overwatch against bog standard Choppa boys:
- 30 Guys. Choppa boys have a Bolt Pistol equivalent: 30 shots. Hits on 6s, 5 hits. 5 Explodes for another hit, 6 hits total. S4 vs T4, half wounds, 3 wounds. 5+sv, 2 Damage. 5+fnp, 1-2 damage.
Let's assume only 17 make combat; 16 will hit so 1 guy is in Broodlord range.
15x4+1x4= 64A, 2+ to hit = 53H, 4+ to wound = 26W, (NO SAVE UNLESS DEATHSKULLS), 6+FNP from Painboy =22Dead. Having 1 or 2 Genestealers extra alive means 4 dead Orks or so. If you land with a full unit alive, it dies.
What it means is that you need a bit of shooting in addition to GS melee to wipe it; as we know, leaving Ork Boyz alive is a bad idea due to Green Tide, so your goal is to wound it (less than half lost), or to completely wipe it out. With a bit of Dakka Flyrant or HG assistance, a single GS squad can wipe 2 Ork Boyz units. Points wise the trade is not that great for us yes - Orks are 8pts I think, so we're 50% more expensive. but the trade here is not about points - it's about scoring and pressure. With 1 sacrificial unit with high pressure, you've taken out 2 main pressure units from the Ork army. At most he'll have another 2 Boyz units (I seldom see a list with more than 120 Boyz), so if you kill 1 more and the Lootas, you probably won the game by T5 cuz he's lost all his map pressure. He may continue to shoot you off the board but by the time he can run things up to score, its too late to catch up.
Now, the lists I fought in the past are very different - I only had to deal with 60 Shoota Boyz or so, with either 30 or 40 gretchin. The kick of those lists were Shock Attack Guns from the Characters that insta-gib anything (even Knights on lucky rolls) and dirt cheap artillery units that afforded no points in ITC. So, my experience may diverge a lot from yours and may not be 100% applicable across. The most relevant thing really is that Orks have to be taken out piece by piece, so whatever you decide to take out first you gotta make sure it dies. your choices are generally to first take out the Lootas, or take out the Boyz, whichever is easier. If I was playing a GSC mix, I'd basically bring the Rusted Claw Biker Boys, a Sanctus and Jackal sniper, and a Magus just for anti-overwatch spell slinging. Rusted Claw boys would be tasked with busting open a Trukk to get at the Lootas, the two snipers would be focused on taking out a core support character like a Painboy or a Weirdboy (or a KFF). Everything else can be settled with my 2 units of Genestealers (who can be hidden behind terrain or in their infestation nodes bidding time for a T2 thing, which you can even set up as a countercharge for someone who decides to bring a Boyz jump right to your door) and someone to deny overwatch on them. HG's support fire closes out the game for you, as always.
Having the snipers are really useful as well - not just to shoot from T1, but just being able to DS somewhere and shoot it without being blocked is a big deal. Dropping a Jackal and a Sanctus together at an Ork character that's not a Warboss, it's probably dead.
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Post by dc0315 on Jun 8, 2020 16:22:40 GMT
Termagants, termagants, termagants. Take 2 units of 30 and 1 unit of 30 with devourers. Keep the devourers at the back. Put the 2 units of fleshborer termagants 4.1" apart up front castling your lines. He da jumps, charges murders 1 unut, consolidates and is 1.1" away from your second line of defence. In your turn shoot the devilgants. Thats 90 shots hitting on 4s and wounding on 4s rerolling 1s since u have more than 20. If necessary use single minded annihilation. Also, an acid spray tyrannofex in a tyrannicyte to murder reserve units in his deployment doesnt hurt too. Youre killing 2/3 units of boys a turn
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Post by doberman on Jun 8, 2020 16:59:35 GMT
Yeap I agree with dc0315. 30 unit Termagant shield, with a similar unit with Devourers and use Single minded annihilation to mop up if required.
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Post by niiai on Jun 8, 2020 17:27:08 GMT
Overwatch against bog standard Choppa boys: - 30 Guys. Choppa boys have a Bolt Pistol equivalent: 30 shots. Hits on 6s, 5 hits. 5 Explodes for another hit, 6 hits total. S4 vs T4, half wounds, 3 wounds. 5+sv, 2 Damage. 5+fnp, 1-2 damage. Let's assume only 17 make combat; 16 will hit so 1 guy is in Broodlord range. 15x4+1x4= 64A, 2+ to hit = 53H, 4+ to wound = 26W, (NO SAVE UNLESS DEATHSKULLS), 6+FNP from Painboy =22Dead. Having 1 or 2 Genestealers extra alive means 4 dead Orks or so. If you land with a full unit alive, it dies. What it means is that you need a bit of shooting in addition to GS melee to wipe it; as we know, leaving Ork Boyz alive is a bad idea due to Green Tide, so your goal is to wound it (less than half lost), or to completely wipe it out. With a bit of Dakka Flyrant or HG assistance, a single GS squad can wipe 2 Ork Boyz units. Points wise the trade is not that great for us yes - Orks are 8pts I think, so we're 50% more expensive. but the trade here is not about points - it's about scoring and pressure. With 1 sacrificial unit with high pressure, you've taken out 2 main pressure units from the Ork army. At most he'll have another 2 Boyz units (I seldom see a list with more than 120 Boyz), so if you kill 1 more and the Lootas, you probably won the game by T5 cuz he's lost all his map pressure. He may continue to shoot you off the board but by the time he can run things up to score, its too late to catch up. Now, the lists I fought in the past are very different - I only had to deal with 60 Shoota Boyz or so, with either 30 or 40 gretchin. The kick of those lists were Shock Attack Guns from the Characters that insta-gib anything (even Knights on lucky rolls) and dirt cheap artillery units that afforded no points in ITC. So, my experience may diverge a lot from yours and may not be 100% applicable across. The most relevant thing really is that Orks have to be taken out piece by piece, so whatever you decide to take out first you gotta make sure it dies. your choices are generally to first take out the Lootas, or take out the Boyz, whichever is easier. If I was playing a GSC mix, I'd basically bring the Rusted Claw Biker Boys, a Sanctus and Jackal sniper, and a Magus just for anti-overwatch spell slinging. Rusted Claw boys would be tasked with busting open a Trukk to get at the Lootas, the two snipers would be focused on taking out a core support character like a Painboy or a Weirdboy (or a KFF). Everything else can be settled with my 2 units of Genestealers (who can be hidden behind terrain or in their infestation nodes bidding time for a T2 thing, which you can even set up as a countercharge for someone who decides to bring a Boyz jump right to your door) and someone to deny overwatch on them. HG's support fire closes out the game for you, as always. Having the snipers are really useful as well - not just to shoot from T1, but just being able to DS somewhere and shoot it without being blocked is a big deal. Dropping a Jackal and a Sanctus together at an Ork character that's not a Warboss, it's probably dead. I have not done the math. I think perhaps the law of averages or bad memory is betraying me to ork cassualeties. Usually he runs a mix of shootas and shoppas (he does not like to play fast...) Having 1 or 2 genstealers ekstra means 4 more dead orks, in that regard for each stealer that dies it means it is less good to charge 30 boys. Ork boy is 7 points. Not a big deal though on the math. The boys is not the main issue. It is just a very big footprint for its point cost once they charge turn 1. The main problem is the wall of T8. Especialy the sparkly bits.
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Post by infornography on Jun 8, 2020 19:11:43 GMT
It sounds like you might be letting the number of dice intimidate you into making poor decisions. Keep in mind statistics are against heavy losses due to overwatch from either flavor of boyz
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Post by tomb on Jun 8, 2020 21:11:35 GMT
Out of nterest what base sizes are you running?
when the Ork book dropped I was running an almost pure Genestealer hord aside from OOE and Swarmlord. My Stealers were on 32s and when I faced new orcs in a tournament who were still on 25s they murderlated my Stealers. I agree Orcs can be a hard counter to Nids.
Plus should this topic topic move out of general? I guess the VS threads will be reset soon though?
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Post by iniquity on Jun 8, 2020 21:20:56 GMT
Out of nterest what base sizes are you running? when the Ork book dropped I was running an almost pure Genestealer hord aside from OOE and Swarmlord. My Stealers were on 32s and when I faced new orcs in a tournament who were still on 25s they murderlated my Stealers. I agree Orcs can be a hard counter to Nids. Plus should this topic topic move out of general? I guess the VS threads will be reset soon though? From the GW site: This box set contains eight multi-part plastic Genestealers, and includes a host of additional components allowing you to represent a number of weapon-symbiotes or biomorph enhancements. Models supplied with 25mm round bases.
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