Anti tank?

[niiai]

I had a game last night where some 10 ork flashgits shot off 6 hiveguards in cover with - 1 to hit turn one.

I was not left with much anti tank. On topp of that itvturned out his sparkly custom job mde his big walker have bs4. It went bad quickly!

As far as I know we only have four sources of good anti tank if you wnat to include old one eye. Him, hive guars, tyranofex with rupture cannon and exoagrine. Now I do not own the last two.

I have carnifexes with heavy venom cannons but they are so bad! Very exapensive for what they do and there is a question of no good weapons to mach it with. Likevice warrior venom cannons are not reliable.

With blood of ball are there any other option for good anti tank?

[xsquidz]

Apr 11, 2020 9:41:20 GMT niiai said:

I had a game last night where some 10 ork flashgits shot off 6 hiveguards in cover with - 1 to hit turn one.

I was not left with much anti tank. On topp of that itvturned out his sparkly custom job mde his big walker have bs4. It went bad quickly!

As far as I know we only have four sources of good anti tank if you wnat to include old one eye. Him, hive guars, tyranofex with rupture cannon and exoagrine. Now I do not own the last two.

I have carnifexes with heavy venom cannons but they are so bad! Very exapensive for what they do and there is a question of no good weapons to mach it with. Likevice warrior venom cannons are not reliable.

With blood of ball are there any other option for good anti tank?

Some other options are broodlords, you can soften with smite and then they are a CC beast, you can get 2 for just a bit more then OOE.  You can hide them behind screens and they are infantry so they can run through walls, can advance and still charge.  If you charge a knight and die you can spend 2 CP to fight again, but if you live or charge something like a repulsar, you can spend 3 CP to fight twice.

You can also ally in mining lasers and rock saws from GSC.  Plus then you can unlock the no-overwatch psychic power "mass hypnosis" if you charging a knight for example.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Behemoth super flyrant (scythes of tyran and a +1 to wound) can do a lot of damage.

You could also run behemoth stealers in large numbers and cast the +1 to wound on them.

Crushing claws carnifex could do ok as well.

Then there are abberants and acolytes with saws.

[killercroc]

So for the most part Ork vehicles are rather lighter than Imperium ones, Most having one less Sv and T than you'd expect so you don't have to worry about AP and S nearly as much as again Marines or Guard. The only real exceptions there are Battlewagons & Gork/Morkanaut that are still T8. Exocrine would be my first suggestion because a Kronos Exocrine with the new power puts out a lot of shots and can kill most things through weight, if you don't want them here would be some alternatives.

Here are suggestions about rounded units that would be good against Orks in general:

Warriors with Deathspitters and Venom cannons are useful in a few ways, Synapse, Troops and have good weapons to deal with Troops as well as Trukks and Buggies, with the points change squads of 3 are only 76 which is just about the same points as 10 Boyz with the option to hold objectives and shoot out from cover outside of charge range. Dakkafex with Quad Deathspitter/Devourer can Help as well with the same idea as the Warriors, you can use them against their Troops or light vehicles while still being harder to kill. Dakkagaunts as well fit here as with 3 shots each S4 they're good against the Boyz and the Buggies with 20 of them killing about an average of 12-13 Boyz and putting 5 wounds on any light vehicle.

More so Dedicated Anti-Tank though there aren't a lot of options as we just don't nearly have the Anti-Tank that other armies have. Venom Cannon and Rupture Cannon are just the biggest we have and they're just "ok". Personally I've found anti-tank Carnifex are OK enough at their role that they're a threat. 2x Deathspitters and a Venom cannon, Enhanced senses and Spore cysts. Gives them a bit of anti-tank and a bit of survivability if you're looking for something cheaper. More Hive Guard wouldn't be a bad idea, even Shock cannons would be good with their S, AP, RoF and Mortal wound ability. They will on average kill everything up to the three big Ork vehicles in one shooting phase, and since they have Assault weapons you can move them around to attack different targets without reducing their effectiveness. I know the 24" range is pretty short but that is actually good against Orks depending on how your opponent built their army cause the majority of the weapons they have are 24" or less.

Finally you can do some Combat, Crusher fex backed by OOE will rip n' tear through most all of their armor, these ones are pretty straight forward. Trygon isn't a bad option either especially if you give him the S/AP/Dmg boost, with Adrenals he's looking at an 8" charge, even better if you're using Behemoth and can give their Super Walker a run for their teef. They can't take them down on their own in a single combat, but with some fire support for T1-2 while the Trygon sits in reserve it works. Also, if I did my math right a Gorkanaut is 301 points and a Trygon with Adrenals is 148 so you can take 2 Trygons to one Gorkanaut and still be 5 points ahead. Take some Gaunts in the tunnels as well to pester their other units and screen your Trygon from possible counter-charges.

Smaller bugs of course there is always drowning them in Hormigaunts or Genestealers, but that's kinda a tactic against everyone not Orks specifically.

[niiai]

I just find the ork matchup so hard. He does what I want to do, but better because of Sx2 attacks.

[Bohxim]

Haruspex are great against horde and tank mixed armies. Charge them into a unit of infantry and a big unit, maw a bunch of infantry then swing that many s14 claws into the mech

[gigasnail]

You mean get tarpitted by gretchen the entire game?

[xsquidz]

Apr 12, 2020 15:41:41 GMT gigasnail said:

You mean get tarpitted by gretchen the entire game?

Or die before it makes it in.

[purestrain]

Or get better at the game

[killercroc]

Git Gud by not taking Haruspex. Trash unit is trash, spend points on better units instead.

Statistically they're not good against Infantry or Tanks, they're lackluster against both. Trygon is better for that than Haru is which is a shame because the Haruspex model is so cool. A simple change would just make the Haruspex WS 3+ with a bonus for charging then it'll be much more competitive. But since it doesn't have those it's not.

VS Infantry: Haruspex has 4 attacks base, say it attacks with the maw is an average of 8 attacks, 4+ WS so 4 average hit and S7 so 3+ to wound against Marines or Orks is 3 wounds. AP -1 so Marines have 4+ save so kills 1.5 however with D3 damage it is more likely to fully kill a Primaris in one hit, 3 Dead Orks. Then it gets to make between 1-3 Claw attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+ with AP -3 it will kill between .33 - 1.25 models.

VS Tanks: Again 4 attacks base, it'll be using claws so 4 attacks, 2 hits, and either 2 wounds against a T7 vehicle or 1.67 against T8. Figure they have a 3+ Sv and with D6 damage you'll do an average of 7 wounds against either so it cannot kill a tank in one go.

Lets look at Trygon now.

Vs Infantry: Trygon has 6 attacks base, 7 because Dual talons, hitting on 3+ with re-roll 1's is an average of 5-6 hits, S7 so Average of 4-5 wounds against Marines or Orks. AP -3 D6 Dmg, high AP means average of 4 Marine kills to 5 Ork kills with much greater odds at killing multi-wound marines, especially being a big threat to Aggressors and Centurions.

VS Tanks: Again 7 attacks, 5-6 hits but this time wounding on 4+ for T7 and 5+ on T8 so about 3 wounds on average for T7 and 2 against T8. 6+ Sv on tank with 3 wounds assuming all go through with D6 damage is an average of 10-11 wounds or 7 for the T8

So not counting Strats, Powers, or BoB buffs the Trygon beats out the Harupsex for damage against Infantry and Tanks all while being 12 points cheaper with the ability to tunnel and transport Infantry.

Really what Haruspex has going for it is the Tankiness over the Trygon. T8 w 13 wounds VS T6 w 12. However if you're fighting Marines with T1 AP -4 Lascannons the extra Tankiness is worth nothing compared to Trygons ability to hide. It's better at not being killed by light infantry than a Trygon but worse at killing things back. In a sense it's a rather large expensive tar pit if your opponent is fielding lots of Boyz or Guardsmen.

TL;DR Trygon does what Haruspex does better for cheaper and more consistently.

[Bohxim]

Apr 13, 2020 14:36:56 GMT killercroc said:

Git Gud by not taking Haruspex. Trash unit is trash, spend points on better units instead.

Statistically they're not good against Infantry or Tanks, they're lackluster against both. Trygon is better for that than Haru is which is a shame because the Haruspex model is so cool. A simple change would just make the Haruspex WS 3+ with a bonus for charging then it'll be much more competitive. But since it doesn't have those it's not.

VS Infantry: Haruspex has 4 attacks base, say it attacks with the maw is an average of 8 attacks, 4+ WS so 4 average hit and S7 so 3+ to wound against Marines or Orks is 3 wounds. AP -1 so Marines have 4+ save so kills 1.5 however with D3 damage it is more likely to fully kill a Primaris in one hit, 3 Dead Orks. Then it gets to make between 1-3 Claw attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+ with AP -3 it will kill between .33 - 1.25 models.

VS Tanks: Again 4 attacks base, it'll be using claws so 4 attacks, 2 hits, and either 2 wounds against a T7 vehicle or 1.67 against T8. Figure they have a 3+ Sv and with D6 damage you'll do an average of 7 wounds against either so it cannot kill a tank in one go.

Lets look at Trygon now.

Vs Infantry: Trygon has 6 attacks base, 7 because Dual talons, hitting on 3+ with re-roll 1's is an average of 5-6 hits, S7 so Average of 4-5 wounds against Marines or Orks. AP -3 D6 Dmg, high AP means average of 4 Marine kills to 5 Ork kills with much greater odds at killing multi-wound marines, especially being a big threat to Aggressors and Centurions.

VS Tanks: Again 7 attacks, 5-6 hits but this time wounding on 4+ for T7 and 5+ on T8 so about 3 wounds on average for T7 and 2 against T8. 6+ Sv on tank with 3 wounds assuming all go through with D6 damage is an average of 10-11 wounds or 7 for the T8

So not counting Strats, Powers, or BoB buffs the Trygon beats out the Harupsex for damage against Infantry and Tanks all while being 12 points cheaper with the ability to tunnel and transport Infantry.

Really what Haruspex has going for it is the Tankiness over the Trygon. T8 w 13 wounds VS T6 w 12. However if you're fighting Marines with T1 AP -4 Lascannons the extra Tankiness is worth nothing compared to Trygons ability to hide. It's better at not being killed by light infantry than a Trygon but worse at killing things back. In a sense it's a rather large expensive tar pit if your opponent is fielding lots of Boyz or Guardsmen.

TL;DR Trygon does what Haruspex does better for cheaper and more consistently.

That does make sense!
Just had fun with haru in smaller point games and thought might be a decent suggestion

[kazetanade]

Just as a footnote - Maleceptor + Haruspex + Exocrenes are a better combo due to mass T8 and cloud protection than a trygon tunnelling. It's niche, but not insignificant.

[killercroc]

Apr 17, 2020 6:15:44 GMT kazetanade said:

Just as a footnote - Maleceptor + Haruspex + Exocrenes are a better combo due to mass T8 and cloud protection than a trygon tunnelling. It's niche, but not insignificant.

Well yeah, of course 3 monsters in a combo is better than one monster, that's not really a fair comparison. You might as well say 18 hive guard in a Kronos army are more effective than a single Trygon.

My point really was the base codex Trygon is cheap, has utility and has the ability to get put in a more advantageous location to get a charge off. Also it was a 1 to 1 comparison to a Haru, if you had the option for a Haru, Trygon or an Exo I'd vote Exo all day long because Exocrine are Bad-A and can put out enough firepower to drop even heavy vehicles with the BoB buffs.

[kazetanade]

Apr 17, 2020 14:23:47 GMT killercroc said:

Apr 17, 2020 6:15:44 GMT kazetanade said:

Just as a footnote - Maleceptor + Haruspex + Exocrenes are a better combo due to mass T8 and cloud protection than a trygon tunnelling. It's niche, but not insignificant.

Well yeah, of course 3 monsters in a combo is better than one monster, that's not really a fair comparison. You might as well say 18 hive guard in a Kronos army are more effective than a single Trygon.

My point really was the base codex Trygon is cheap, has utility and has the ability to get put in a more advantageous location to get a charge off. Also it was a 1 to 1 comparison to a Haru, if you had the option for a Haru, Trygon or an Exo I'd vote Exo all day long because Exocrine are Bad-A and can put out enough firepower to drop even heavy vehicles with the BoB buffs.

Let me rephrase - Exo Male Haruspex has better synergy than most Trygon combos, (Trygon + devilgants/genestealers, or Trygon + other DS threat drops, or even Trygon + Exo for distraction purposes) so as an army selection is more viable than the Trygon for overall consideration. On niche, standalone, or specific roles, the Trygon does it's one little thing OK, while the Haruspex is a pretty underwhelming without BoB support. For tournament play, both are not good choices.