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Post by fallencerebrate on Feb 21, 2020 18:09:32 GMT
Hey guys,
So I haven’t gamed in a while, and decided to switch armies so I’m new to playing tyranids (I’ve officially betrayed the emperor). I wanted to try nids and my buddy has lent me his army. I’ve got a tournament coming up with some guys I knew who play fairly frequently. I’ve played them before so I kind of know what I’m up against; couple of chaos, Necron, Tau, and a guy who uses guard+malleus/custodes and a MBT. I’ve tried to create an army that will give me good balance against their playing styles and a decent CP tally, let me know what you think and if there’s any changes you’d suggest.
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) [50 PL, 762pts, 5CP] ++
+ Configuration [5CP] +
Detachment CP [5CP]
Hive Fleet: Kraken
+ HQ [21 PL, 295pts] +
Broodlord [8 PL, 115pts]: The Norn Crown, Warlord
Tervigon [13 PL, 180pts]: Massive Scything Talons [10pts], Stinger Salvo [8pts]
+ Troops [18 PL, 273pts] +
Genestealers [8 PL, 120pts]
. 10x Genestealer [120pts]: 10x Rending Claws [20pts]
Genestealers [8 PL, 120pts]
. 10x Genestealer [120pts]: 10x Rending Claws [20pts]
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm [33pts]
+ Heavy Support [11 PL, 194pts] +
Tyrannofex [11 PL, 194pts]: Rupture Cannon [35pts], Stinger Salvo [8pts]
++ Total: [50 PL, 5CP, 762pts] ++
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) [49 PL, 738pts, 8CP] ++
+ Configuration [8CP] +
Battle-forged CP [3CP]
Detachment CP [5CP]
Hive Fleet: Hydra
+ HQ [12 PL, 154pts] +
Tyranid Prime [6 PL, 77pts]: Boneswords [2pts], Deathspitter [5pts]
Tyranid Prime [6 PL, 77pts]: Boneswords [2pts], Deathspitter [5pts]
+ Troops [21 PL, 306pts] +
Hormagaunts [6 PL, 100pts]: 20x Hormagaunt [100pts]
Termagants [6 PL, 60pts]
. 15x Termagant (Fleshborer) [60pts]
Tyranid Warriors [9 PL, 146pts]
. Tyranid Warrior [22pts]: Devourer [4pts], Scything Talons
. Tyranid Warrior [22pts]: Devourer [4pts], Scything Talons
. Tyranid Warrior [22pts]: Devourer [4pts], Scything Talons
. Tyranid Warrior [22pts]: Devourer [4pts], Scything Talons
. Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon) [30pts]: Scything Talons, Venom Cannon [12pts]
. Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon) [28pts]: Barbed Strangler [10pts], Scything Talons
+ Heavy Support [16 PL, 278pts] +
Carnifexes [6 PL, 109pts]
. Carnifex [109pts]: Enhanced Senses [10pts], Heavy Venom Cannon [18pts], Monstrous Scything Talons [14pts]
Trygon Prime [10 PL, 169pts]: 3x Massive Scything Talons [30pts], Toxinspike [1pts]
++ Total: [49 PL, 8CP, 738pts] ++
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Post by murderfiesta on Feb 22, 2020 1:29:08 GMT
Could you tell us about your strategy and what you hope to accomplish with each of your selections? Could you also let us know the total set of options so we can make suggestions that you can actually field?
Off the top of my head, it looks like you're either trying to do too much with not much or you need to think some more about your battle plan or the purposes for each unit at a detailed level. Take the Warrior squad for example; you've given the baseline warriors Devourers (Deathspitters are far superior for only 1ppm more), and then given them a Barbed Strangler and a Venom Cannon. Unless you're shooting at something with 10 models or more, a Barbed Strangler is essentially a very expensive high-variance Deathspitter. Also, a single Venom Cannon by itself is unlikely to do much. These warriors are then in a Hydra detachment, but you don't have any reinforcement points to re-spawn them with the Hydra stratagem, they're already hitting on 2s re-rolling 1s when within 6" of either Prime (meaning the Hydra fleet trait is wasted on them even in the few cases where they do outnumber their opponents in combat), and they don't have Adrenal Glands to give them an easier charge if they go underground with the Trygon Prime. Past that, they only have Scything Talons for melee so they're not going to shoot OR fight well. Taking two Tyranid Primes to go with them is also an excessive waste of points if you have any other HQ options available (Hive Tyrant, Neurothrope) since you're literally spending as much on units to buff the squad as you're spending on the squad itself.
Past that, taking your second detachment as Hydra is also questionable. There's only one unit in the entire thing that will particularly benefit from the Hydra trait (the hormagaunts), you don't have any psykers to take the Hydra spell, a high-wound HQ to use the Hydra warlord trait effectively, or reinforcement points to bring back the Warriors (you can always use the Hydra stratagem on gaunts and goyles even if they're not Hydra).
I think you could pick a better relic than the Norn Crown. You have 6 units that provide synapse and 7 that need synapse (though the Rippers honestly probably don't even need to be in synapse range, so 6). Which relic will be a better pick will be determined by what you actually want to accomplish with the unit on which you've picked to use the relic.
An additional change you'll want to consider is to make the Tervigon the same <HIVE FLEET> as your termagants and dramatically increasing the number of termagants you take. While there doesn't seem to be a FAQ stating that a Tervigon CAN'T replenish termagants from a different hive fleet (since the rule is not written as "replenish a unit of <HIVE FLEET> termagants"), the Tervigon won't be able to provide synapse or shooting buffs to the termagants if they do not share a <HIVE FLEET>. In addition, 15 termagants is super easy to kill and you can only replenish models that have died, so you can't replenish the squad above 15 in the event nobody attacks the termagants. Past that, you need to use reinforcement points to spawn new units of termagants, but you don't have any reinforcement points, so if an opponent immediately wipes out the termagants your Tervigon effectively becomes a 180 pt paper weight. If you can't run more termagants but need the psychic support I recommend taking a Neurothrope and getting 90 points back, since the Tervigon is massssssively overpriced as a close combat monster if that's all it ends up doing.
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Post by No One on Feb 22, 2020 3:04:54 GMT
Hmm...Lots of things that I don't like. -Definitely want >10 man stealer squads. You'll drop below 10 instantly and lose bonus attacks and do nothing. -Terv without termagants is...no. (Didn't realise that you could respawn in non hive fleet, but even so 15 is not enough: 2 squads of 30 is probably min, and even then the tervigon isn't actually good). -Devs on warriors basically isn't worth bothering with. Deathspitters are so much better for 1 pt more. -Double prime is a waste of pts -Single fex with HVC/scythe isn't going to do much of anything -Trygon prime should just be trygon and should have adrenal (is also a bit underwhelming, which is normally fine, except that also applies to the rest of the list  ). I think you could pick a better relic than the Norn Crown. You have 6 units that provide synapse and 7 that need synapse (though the Rippers honestly probably don't even need to be in synapse range, so 6). Which relic will be a better pick will be determined by what you actually want to accomplish with the unit on which you've picked to use the relic. Norn crown only affects IB for same hive fleet. So literally just an extra 6" range for the t-fex. It's bad. |
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Post by fallencerebrate on Feb 24, 2020 16:07:28 GMT
Hey, thanks for the feedback it’s been really helpful and given me a hell of a lot to think about. In terms of what’s available to take for my army, the guy who’s lending me his tyranids (he doesn’t play them) has over 12k points of units so there’s nothing he doesn’t have available.
So you might be right about my strategy. What I’d had in mind was taking two different forces to serve different purposes and get an extra 5 cp from having two battalion detachments. The hydra force was to act as a screening force, taking the brunt of the fire to shield my cc units in kraken. I’d chosen to split my screening force into a Hydra force because the endless swarm strategy meant I could essentially replace the entire warrior squad so the plan was to have them look intimidating, big them up to players so they seemed like the lynchpin of my force, and then along with the gaunts soak up a load of the fire. I could then replace them with endless swarm as they were killed off. My kraken units would use their advance roll ability to break through the line and close in for combat, or tunnel in with my Trygon prime (trygon should be in kraken list, but I’m new to battle scribe as well). Most of the guys haven’t played against tyranids in several years and by having several threatening units (Trygon, carnifex, tyrannofex, tervigon, stealers) my aim was to confuse the opponent as to which unit he should be focusing on and split his fire up.
Good point on the Tervigon, would’ve been smarter in the hydra force. I’d taken it because the tournament is using fairly relaxed version of narrative play, so they’d mentioned they weren’t planning to bother with RP for spawning new units (the organiser is a chaos player so may be the wanting that with the ability to spawn horrors) so I figured the tervigon would be great dropping a new unit every turn for free. You reckon swap it for a tyrant or something?
I’ve been thinking about swapping the tyrannofex for maybe an exocrine or some HG. It’s a beast but apart from when I’m fighting the tau’s riptide or the other guys baneblade it’s not going to offer the best value for the points. The Trygon I’d made a prime because I was planning to have some stealers in the tunnel with it but I guess as long as they make it into combat it’s not really a concern and downgrading would save points for fleshing out troops.
I’ll probably lose the carnifex and use the points to bulk up the stealer squads too. Norm crown I’ve swapped out for maw-claws, to increase CC effectiveness on Broodlord.
In terms of the primes, i’d only taken two because I needed a 2nd HQ but I didn’t have enough points left for a neurothrope or something else; The trade-off for taking two detachments.
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Post by No One on Feb 25, 2020 0:09:53 GMT
So you might be right about my strategy. What I’d had in mind was taking two different forces to serve different purposes and get an extra 5 cp from having two battalion detachments. The hydra force was to act as a screening force, taking the brunt of the fire to shield my cc units in kraken. I’d chosen to split my screening force into a Hydra force because the endless swarm strategy meant I could essentially replace the entire warrior squad so the plan was to have them look intimidating, big them up to players so they seemed like the lynchpin of my force, and then along with the gaunts soak up a load of the fire. I could then replace them with endless swarm as they were killed off. My kraken units would use their advance roll ability to break through the line and close in for combat, or tunnel in with my Trygon prime (trygon should be in kraken list, but I’m new to battle scribe as well). Most of the guys haven’t played against tyranids in several years and by having several threatening units (Trygon, carnifex, tyrannofex, tervigon, stealers) my aim was to confuse the opponent as to which unit he should be focusing on and split his fire up. OK, if they haven't played nids that strategy may work. The usual response from people is to focus the genestealers: however, that's probably going to be the response of people who played nids in 4th/5th anyway. And 'shoot the closes/shoot the big things' is also a common response, so unless you aren't making use of the stealers' speed (at which point, why bother?), you're going to struggle to have the Hydra stuff die first. Also, tunneling stealers just means a 9" charge that you probably fail, and then they're at optimal murder range. To be honest, considering the below, I'd just go all Hydra: without Swarmlord to really give the stealers rapid mobility, I'm not sure they're making combat before they die. Then 2 CP to just come back? That definitely changes things. Still not sure if it'd be good, but it'd definitely be playable. And yeah, Hydra makes way more sense now. To take advantage of this, you could take bigger squads of things (Narrative is broken, up to you how much you abuse it). Also still want deathspitters/boneswords, even more so now: you want them to be threatening, you want them to die, and you want them to be good when they come back. Devourers/scy tals are...none of those things. Also AG, so you can make an 8" charge instead of 9" when you show up. |
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Post by murderfiesta on Mar 7, 2020 17:28:32 GMT
If you're loading up on the Warriors and it's Narrative play where you don't need to pay RP for Endless Swarm, honestly give them Toxin Sacs as well. Warriors are only S4 with no options to buff that, so they're not going to really threaten armored vehicles. However, giving them Toxin Sacs literally doubles their damage output against T8 and makes them at least more than a nuisance against heavy enemy targets. The math isn't great, but with 9 warriors you'll get 36 attacks hitting on 3+ (assuming Prime isn't around), so 24 hits, and then 4 wounds against T8. They'll probably have a 5+ save after Bonesword modifiers, so that'll let them save one or two wounds, at which point you do 4-6 damage instead of 2-3. If you also maxed the Venom Cannons* and have been using these to chip away at the tough targets then 4-6 wounds from a single fight phase might be all you need, and if not there's the Fight Twice stratagem.
*I find Venom Cannons to be super unreliable, but if you're looking to make the Warriors a target to draw tons of fire then you should really load 'em up. Also keep in mind that, as Synapse creatures, Warriors can trigger the PA charge bonus against a target that lost wounds to a Synapse shooting attack stratagem for themselves!
If you're looking to abuse the fact that this is Narrative then you'll want more CP so you can be dropping Endless Swarm every turn without hindering the rest of your CP usage. Here's something to consider:
Triple Battalion (all Hydra).
- 3 Tervigons (keep them hidden, spit out 30 termagants a turn)
- 1 Tyranid Prime
- 2 Broodlords
- 9 Warriors (Toxin Sacs, Adrenal Glands, Boneswords, 6 Deathspitters, 3 Venom Cannons)
- 8x3 Ripper Swarms.
- 100 points left over - can use this to add more termagants.
Here's an alternative-alternative where the sole goal is to abuse Hydra in Narrative as much as possible:
-3 Battalions (all Hydra)
-3 Tervigons
-1 Malanthrope
-2 Broodlords (one with Resonance Barb and Death Shriek, the other with either Death Shriek or The Horror)
-6x3 Ripper swarms
-3x30 Termagants
-52 points left over.
Here you can spit out 30 termagants a turn, and whenever they kill one of the large Termagant units you bring it back. Get your big units of termagants into combat so you can abuse Death Shriek and Acid Blood stratagem with a giant tarpit that keeps coming back. Broodlords are there to act as "safe" casters in the frontline for Death Shriek (since they can't be targeted except by snipers) and can Heroically Intervene into things that are getting a little too spicy. Chain your big Termagant blobs and as many spawned termagant squads as possible back to the Malanthrope for that delicious -1 to-hit and make them harder to kill. It's not clear to me right now whether re-spawned units retain their Adaptive Physiology if given one. If they DO retain the Physiology, consider giving either both Broodlords or two Termagant squads either the -2 Leadership or 6" Heroic Intervention physiologies. Being able to Heroically Intervene a squad of 30 termagants into another squad of 30 will guarantee that the enemy unit (even Khorne Berserkers!) get bogged down for multiple turns. Also remember you can use Endless Swarm on Hydra Broodlords! The goal here is to simply bog down the entire table in way too many exploding Termagants. Having the enemy at -2 leadership means enemies are much more likely to run away when the termagants actually do explode on them as well.
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Post by No One on Mar 8, 2020 6:51:27 GMT
If you're looking to abuse the fact that this is Narrative then you'll want more CP so you can be dropping Endless Swarm every turn without hindering the rest of your CP usage. Here's something to consider: The problem with this is it requires the unit to die. The point of warriors is to not die. While they'll eventually get ground down, especially as Hydra and if used aggressively, they're not likely to be dying enough to warrant heaps of CP. And nothing else wants endless swarm. Also, just because the terms are free still doesn't make the tervs good: 4 rounds of spawning doesn't even make its points back, and stuff early is (generally) worse than stuff later. Tervs can spawn free gaunts without narrative and they're still bad: this cuts down on the unreliability, but I still don't think it warrants 3. The first list has basically no bite whatsoever. Considering it's supposed to be more narrative I'm guessing, the 2nd list seems fine. Lots of sustained board control backed up by OK Character protected psychic MW and combat. But for a comp list, well: thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/57823/pure-hydra-gt?page=1. Swarmlord+horms and stealers gives you very aggressive board control that makes good use of endless swarm. One terv to hide and pump out gaunts, a warrior blob for midfield and endless. Cut out the 'cepter and reinforcement points and that's almost a 1500 pt list. |
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Post by murderfiesta on Mar 8, 2020 16:13:14 GMT
No, you're right, I took the absurdity train to the last stop and then refused to get off the train with these suggestions. Narrative never comes up so I basically got caught up with the question of "how much can a Tyranid list take advantage of Narrative rules" without asking "how much *should* Tyranids abuse narrative rules".
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).