GSC MSU Melee

[dandc]

An idea I've been talking about in other threads, having heard Nanavati and Lathouras on a pod saying MSU is the way forward with GSC Melee. At 1500pts,which is the level I play most of my games, nearly always Maelstrom, I'm not sure there are enough points to fit in the tools.

Idea I started with was to get decent chances of charges without spending much CP, using the free Sanctus PA +amulet alongside hypnosis to shut down overwatch. The second relic would change depending on opponent, with options on the Locus, Patty and Kelermorph in particular. There are however obvious gaps that I'm struggling to fill at 1500. Is the whole idea mad?

SPOILER: Click to show

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [33 PL, 5CP, 568pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Cult Creed: Cult of the Four-Armed Emperor

Detachment CP [5CP]

Specialist Detachment: Anointed Throng [-1CP]

Stratagem: Grandsire's Gifts [-1CP]: 1 Extra Sacred Relic

+ HQ +

Abominant [6 PL, -1CP, 105pts]: Stratagem: Field Commander, Warlord Trait: Insidious Mindwyrm

Primus [4 PL, 75pts]: Bonesword

+ Troops +

Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: Brood Brothers Leader
. 9x Brood Brother

Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: Brood Brothers Leader
. 9x Brood Brother

Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: Brood Brothers Leader
. 9x Brood Brother

+ Elites +

Aberrants [14 PL, 268pts]
. 8x Aberrant (Pick): 8x Power Pick
. Aberrant Hypermorph (Improvised): Heavy Improvised Weapon

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [33 PL, 3CP, 605pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Cult Creed: Cult of the Four-Armed Emperor

Detachment CP [5CP]

Specialist Detachment: Deliverance Broodsurge [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Acolyte Iconward [3 PL, -1CP, 53pts]: Stratagem: Field Commander, Warlord Trait: Augur of the Insurgent

Magus [4 PL, 80pts]

Patriarch [8 PL, 137pts]: Familiar, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Inscrutable Cunning

+ Troops +

Acolyte Hybrids [6 PL, 120pts]: Cult Icon
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife

Acolyte Hybrids [6 PL, 120pts]: Cult Icon
. 5x Acolyte Hybrid
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw
. Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife

Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: Brood Brothers Leader
. 9x Brood Brother

+ Elites +

Clamavus [3 PL, 55pts]

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [15 PL, 1CP, 323pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Cult Creed: None (Mixed Detachment)

Detachment CP [1CP]

+ HQ +

Jackal Alphus [4 PL, 70pts]

+ Elites +

Kelermorph [3 PL, 75pts]

Locus [2 PL, 40pts]: Sword of the Four-armed Emperor

Sanctus [3 PL, 55pts]: Amulet of the Voidwyrm, Sanctus Bio-dagger

+ Fast Attack +

Atalan Jackals [3 PL, 83pts]
. Atalan Jackal: Demolition Charge, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Demolition Charge, Shotgun
. Atalan Jackal: Demolition Charge, Shotgun
. Atalan Leader: Demolition Charge, Grenade Launcher

++ Total: [81 PL, 9CP, 1,496pts] ++

[hivefleetkerrigan]

The first thing I'm seeing is that if you're running a mixed detachment, the sanctus will not gain the benefit of 4AE.
I'm guessing you're planning on using rock saws against either big targets or intercessors? I'm trying to figure out the target priority for each of your units.

[murderfiesta]

One thing I've been toying around with in my head is that some of the custom Cult traits are actually pretty good, but require a little work to make happen. In particular, for this kind of list I think two or three units of Hybrid Metamorphs with the "re-roll charges within 3 inches" trait and the "re-roll ones to hit" trait would actually do quite well. Take two units of Metamorphs with 2x talons each; these units are 90 pts each and are throwing out 50 St4 attacks hitting on 2s re-rolling 1s. Take a Clamavus with the 9" range for 1 CP. This gives you an 8" re-rollable charge (61% probability of success compared to 56% on 7" charge) and two very effective screen clearing units that are exceptionally cheap. They also don't conflict with the stratagems that a Sanctus or pile of demo Jackals would want to use compared to a pile of flamer acolytes.

Obviously the trade-off here is they're less reliable than flamer acolytes due to needing a charge roll, but if you're super concerned with that it's not particularly expensive to get a third unit and drop two on turn 2 and one on turn 3. Also consider the budget option of rending claw + whip for 70 pts/squad and 30 rending attacks hitting on 3s/re-rolling 1s if you're short on points.

On the acolyte side, so long as you can start one model from each acolyte squad within 3" of a Hybrid Metamorph and 9" of the Clamavus you get a more reliable charge than with 4AE, and the re-roll 1s to-hit trait saves you 10 points per squad (which will add up when going MSU). The re-roll 1s to-hit also applies to units that can't normally take an Icon (but not Genestealers), like the dagger Sanctus, which can help keep him from whiffing.

I could see something like the below being an interesting test (I won't guarantee it'll work, I haven't gotten a chance to test it myself). I dropped the Abominant and Aberrants because I don't think they're in a great spot right now for their cost (I can get all THREE of the Metamorph units for the price of the one unit of Aberrants). Battle plan would be to send two Metamorph units, the Clamavus, and a Jackal unit in on turn 2 to clear screens and nuke a target with demo charges. Turn 3, the last Metamorph unit drops in along with everything else. The difficult part here would probably be keeping the Clamavus alive after turn 2, but the below list has 62 points available that can be used to take another Brood Brothers unit to help increase the number of drops/models starting on the table and hopefully allow additional resources to be shifted towards deploying as a screen for the clamavus.  If you need more points, you can get another 60 by switching the metamorphs to rending claw/lash whips which will give them a better punch against armored targets due to the additional AP.  It'll also make them better against counter-charges if you manage to wrap and trap, since they get to fight even if they die.
Battalion 1:

HQ: 128 pts
Acolyte Iconward: 53 pts
Primus: 75 pts

Elites: 235 pts
10x Hybrid Metamorph (2x talon): 90 pts
10x Hybrid Metamorph (2x talon): 90 pts
Clamavus: 55 pts

Troops: 260 pts
10x acolytes (4x rock saw): 110 pts
10x acolytes (4x rock saw): 110 pts
10x acolytes (4x rock saw): 110 pts

Battalion 2:

HQ: 205 pts
Patriarch: 125 pts
Magus: 80 pts

Elites: 220 pts
10x Hybrid Metamorph (2x talon): 90 pts
Kelermorph: 75 pts
Sanctus (Dagger): 55 pts

Troops: 120 pts
Brood Brothers: 40 pts
Brood Brothers: 40 pts
Brood Brothers: 40 pts

Fast Attack: 200
5x Jackals (5x Demo Charge/5x Shotgun): 100 pts
5x Jackals (5x Demo Charge/5x Shotgun): 100 pts

Total: 1,438

[gorsameth]

I'd say losing Vect is unacceptable and your acolytes can already re-roll charges from the Deliverance Broodsurge specialist warlord trait.

As for your list, don't forget you get 6 elite slots in a Battalion so you can move the 2nd battalion's elites to the first and then make it mixed. Custom cult Patriarch, 4AE Magus for D3 CP and still having Vect. And perhaps the jackals to RC if you feel so inclined.
Tho then you can't get the + to cast from the new Magus strat.

[murderfiesta]

Vect is one of those things I'm 50/50 on. It's absolutely VERY good, but if moving into an MSU style I'm not sure it's strictly mandatory since there's (in theory) no critical deathstar that HAS to be protected at all costs.

I think the Deliverance Broodsurge warlord trait is potentially in a similar place when going MSU, you've got a 6" bubble for the warlord trait to function in (don't get me wrong, it is a sizeable space but it can't be everywhere) and then a 3CP strat two turns in a row to get everything you need in melee, into melee. For a deathstar style it's definitely the optimal method, but for an MSU style it may put too many restrictions on where you can actually deploy your forces and have an impact, because you'll need to cluster all your deep strike forces except two units on one primary attack vector for reliability. I'd actually hazard that for MSU melee running two Clamavuses may not be overkill at 2000 pts (it probably still is overkill at 1500), but the existence of the 9" radius upgrade stratagem helps a ton with spreading the +1 to charge bonus.

Just some thoughts, I'm definitely willing to be proven wrong.

Edit: I missed it earlier, but thank you Gorsameth for pointing out Battalions are 0-6 Elites! I still get it confused with the old 3rd/4th/5th force org charts where elites/fast attack/heavy support were 0-3.

[No One]

Losing Vect also means you basically auto lose to DE, and struggle in the mirror. Also just 2 CP to take out 1/3 of your real combat oomph is really good, even without hard committing (your 10 man 4 saws is only ~45 pts cheaper than the common 15 man 4-6 saws build: it adds up, but it's not really a huge difference per squad to make auspex go from plan ruining to meh).

While I can't really comment specifically on MSU (I play MBU ), I've found that you've generally only got 1-2 flanks you want to commit on, either because of lack of targets or just because there isn't anywhere to go. If the flanks are separate, hard commitment with the FAE Characters and multiple squads on the important flank, PA on the other flank. If they're not that separate, you can sometimes just daisy chain from the central buff Characters to get charges on both flanks: can get messy though, but doable. Add on you want (patriarch/iconward for defence, primus/iconward S banner for offense), and there usually wouldn't be much benefit in being able to have multiple units on different flanks. The PA squad can get the single target buffs (might/draw) if needed.

There might be something here over the PP builds though? Not sure on that. But I just don't think 61% chance is something to build your entire strategy around if you can avoid it. Compared to FAE+broodsurge, which is 83%.

[murderfiesta]

Point well-taken on the Vect.

I've seen a decent number of lists in the past that forgo a full 4AE detachment for their melee units and instead run Bladed Cog or mixed (4AE/Bladed Cog) with the acolyte bomb in order to use the Bladed Cog strat on the acolytes. I don't have time to do a full accounting of where this strategy shows up, but in recent events Erik Lathouras has his acolyte bomb in a Bladed Cog battalion probably for this reason even though it's a more shooty list (https://www.40kstats.com/cancon). I guess he can make that work given he will APA the Acolytes one turn and the Sanctus the other turn though, he doesn't have multiple units that he's trying to get into combat all at once. I'll have to dig in when I get a chance and go back over the other Bladed Cog/Mixed melee lists I've seen in the past.

[No One]

I don't remember seeing that many. But BC is the only one where you've got a useful melee stratagem and you don't need the trait, so going mixed doesn't hurt that det. Usually there's a dedicated mixed det, but for some lists I guess they can't afford to have that separate so just combine it with the aco det.

[dandc]

Thanks for the replies. I'm not sure I'm ready to give up my aberrant yet, they've been the best part of nearly all my GSC lists. Do like the idea of metamorphs for screen clearance, and probably make more sense than saw acolytes give they have the same targets as the aberrants. Trouble is fitting it all in at 1500.

I have also thought about PP, given my preference for aberrants. Just a question of getting the charges off. One abbie death star PA'ing makes sense with PP I suppose, or turn 2 metamorph PA and a turn 3 abbie death star, if CP can be found.