Tremor shells wording

[beetlejuice]

Just came across this thread on reddit discussing the wording of the tremor shells stratagem.

www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/eyfu7k/thunderfire_cannon_has_the_tremor_shells/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

TREMOR SHELLS: Use this stratagem at the start of your shooting phase. Select one THUNDERFIRE CANNON model from your army. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made by that model, subtract 1 from the wound roll, but if a hit is scored, the target is shaken in your opponent’s next Movement phase. If a unit that cannot FLY and is not TITANIC is shaken, halve its Move characteristic and the result of any Advance and charge rolls made for it.


So the interesting thing is the part where it applies for the next movement phase, not next turn. Therefor RAW advancing with Hive Commander in the shooting phase is unaffected. Seeing as charge rolls happen in the charge phase where the shaken effect no longer applies, they are also unaffected despite the wording of the last sentence.

However I guess flyrants can still be affected in the movement phase since the stratagem specifies ”cannot FLY and is not TITANIC”, meaning you need both keywords (since it doesn’t say or) on the targeted unit in order to not be shaken.

Anyone had TOs rule on this? Arguably RAI is pretty clear that charge rolls should be affected but since GW insists on RAW taking precedence in the abscence of FAQs I’d say Swarmlord+genestealer sling is still quite viable since they still get 4”+d6/2” advance in movement phase followed by 8”+d6 advance in shooting phase and 2d6” charge.

[purestrain]

Feb 12, 2020 12:55:19 GMT beetlejuice said:

Just came across this thread on reddit discussing the wording of the tremor shells stratagem.

www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/eyfu7k/thunderfire_cannon_has_the_tremor_shells/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

TREMOR SHELLS: Use this stratagem at the start of your shooting phase. Select one THUNDERFIRE CANNON model from your army. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made by that model, subtract 1 from the wound roll, but if a hit is scored, the target is shaken in your opponent’s next Movement phase. If a unit that cannot FLY and is not TITANIC is shaken, halve its Move characteristic and the result of any Advance and charge rolls made for it.


So the interesting thing is the part where it applies for the next movement phase, not next turn. Therefor RAW advancing with Hive Commander in the shooting phase is unaffected. Seeing as charge rolls happen in the charge phase where the shaken effect no longer applies, they are also unaffected despite the wording of the last sentence.

However I guess flyrants can still be affected in the movement phase since the stratagem specifies ”cannot FLY and is not TITANIC”, meaning you need both keywords (since it doesn’t say or) on the targeted unit in order to not be shaken.

Anyone had TOs rule on this? Arguably RAI is pretty clear that charge rolls should be affected but since GW insists on RAW taking precedence in the abscence of FAQs I’d say Swarmlord+genestealer sling is still quite viable since they still get 4”+d6/2” advance in movement phase followed by 8”+d6 advance in shooting phase and 2d6” charge.

Also adding on that things that "happen during a phase" dont actually count as that phase, so I cant see how the sling wouldnt work

[naviedzony]

It still "kind of" works, but not nearly as well as it used to. The only good answer to tremor shells is "A Plan Generations in the Making" if you still wont to use the genestealer sling.

[mattblowers]

Feb 12, 2020 12:55:19 GMT beetlejuice said:

Just came across this thread on reddit discussing the wording of the tremor shells stratagem.

www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/eyfu7k/thunderfire_cannon_has_the_tremor_shells/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

TREMOR SHELLS: Use this stratagem at the start of your shooting phase. Select one THUNDERFIRE CANNON model from your army. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made by that model, subtract 1 from the wound roll, but if a hit is scored, the target is shaken in your opponent’s next Movement phase. If a unit that cannot FLY and is not TITANIC is shaken, halve its Move characteristic and the result of any Advance and charge rolls made for it.


So the interesting thing is the part where it applies for the next movement phase, not next turn. Therefor RAW advancing with Hive Commander in the shooting phase is unaffected. Seeing as charge rolls happen in the charge phase where the shaken effect no longer applies, they are also unaffected despite the wording of the last sentence.

No. You are reading it wrong. They become shaken in the movement phase. A shaken unit halves move characteristic and advance/charge moves.

However I guess flyrants can still be affected in the movement phase since the stratagem specifies ”cannot FLY and is not TITANIC”, meaning you need both keywords (since it doesn’t say or) on the targeted unit in order to not be shaken.

Again, no. You are reading it wrong. EVERY unit is shaken. However, shaken only effects units that don't fly AND do not have the titanic keyword. Meaning if you fly OR have the titanic keyword it doesn't affect you.

[beetlejuice]

Feb 12, 2020 14:37:28 GMT mattblowers said:

Feb 12, 2020 12:55:19 GMT beetlejuice said:

Just came across this thread on reddit discussing the wording of the tremor shells stratagem.

www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/eyfu7k/thunderfire_cannon_has_the_tremor_shells/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

TREMOR SHELLS: Use this stratagem at the start of your shooting phase. Select one THUNDERFIRE CANNON model from your army. Until the end of that phase, when resolving an attack made by that model, subtract 1 from the wound roll, but if a hit is scored, the target is shaken in your opponent’s next Movement phase. If a unit that cannot FLY and is not TITANIC is shaken, halve its Move characteristic and the result of any Advance and charge rolls made for it.


So the interesting thing is the part where it applies for the next movement phase, not next turn. Therefor RAW advancing with Hive Commander in the shooting phase is unaffected. Seeing as charge rolls happen in the charge phase where the shaken effect no longer applies, they are also unaffected despite the wording of the last sentence.

No. You are reading it wrong. They become shaken in the movement phase. A shaken unit halves move characteristic and advance/charge moves.

However I guess flyrants can still be affected in the movement phase since the stratagem specifies ”cannot FLY and is not TITANIC”, meaning you need both keywords (since it doesn’t say or) on the targeted unit in order to not be shaken.

Again, no. You are reading it wrong. EVERY unit is shaken. However, shaken only effects units that don't fly AND do not have the titanic keyword. Meaning if you fly OR have the titanic keyword it doesn't affect you.

By your interpretation the effect would never wear off and apply for the rest of the game since there is no specification that it applies for only one turn. RAW it is however specified that it applies for the opponent’s next movement phase. It doesnt say opponent’s next turn, opponent’s next charge phase or until your next movement phase.

Sloppy writing for sure, but still a loophole by RAW


After actually thinking about the keywords though I see how you are right. Negatives are confusing.

[mattblowers]

Feb 12, 2020 14:58:42 GMT beetlejuice said:

Feb 12, 2020 14:37:28 GMT mattblowers said:

No. You are reading it wrong. They become shaken in the movement phase. A shaken unit halves move characteristic and advance/charge moves.

Again, no. You are reading it wrong. EVERY unit is shaken. However, shaken only effects units that don't fly AND do not have the titanic keyword. Meaning if you fly OR have the titanic keyword it doesn't affect you.

By your interpretation the effect would never wear off and apply for the rest of the game since there is no specification that it applies for only one turn. RAW it is however specified that it applies for the opponent’s next movement phase. It doesnt say opponent’s next turn, opponent’s next charge phase or until your next movement phase.

Sloppy writing for sure, but still a loophole by RAW


After actually thinking about the keywords though I see how you are right. Negatives are confusing.

Sloppy writing is GWs trademark.

I'm sure SM players will be more than happy to oblige you and have the effect work the rest of the game. Why even stop there? That unit is forever shaken!! It would sell more models. It can't affect charges if this only works in the movement phase.

[hivefleetkerrigan]

Fun fact about this as RAW: we could heroically intervene without penalty during that players turn. Overrun and/or 1 step ahead would also not be affected (during your opponents turn) RAW either.

RAI, I'm assuming they mean "is shaken from that point until the start of your next shooting phase."

[dranzyl]

The second part is clear enough as mattblowers said.
The first has the problems you mentioned it does take effect (the usual 'counts as' phases confusion) and doesnt state an end to the effect (really big miss there).

[bigpig]

It doesn't become "shaken" until the next movement phase would be another way to read it (meaning overrun does work without hinderance in the current turn as has been pointed out). Regardless, the specific wording of Halve all advance and charge rolls pretty much kills the argument of "only in the movement phase" dead in the water. This has been around for a while and this reddit article is just someone trying to rules lawyer their way around a very clear RAI and fairly clear RAW. To support, it has pretty much been played universally the same way at all majors world wide for some time now. If the author wants to think he/she is a very special flower that somehow found something the rest of the entire world missed, well... ok .

It would be nice if it did work that way though.

[purestrain]

its either permanent or only in the movement phase, needs faq.

[infornography]

I mostly agree with bigpig. I do think that RAW is not as clear as an initial read would imply but you rarely encounter a more clear RAI when there is otherwise confusing wording. I wouldn't try to run any shenanigans around this rule and just play it as it is clearly intended. Putting in an FAQ request might be alright but largely unnecessary.

[mattblowers]

Feb 12, 2020 22:42:37 GMT purestrain said:

its either permanent or only in the movement phase, needs faq.

And by permanent we mean PERMANENT! Like for every game for the rest eternity for that unit. “Can’t that take unit, it’s still shaken!”

[No One]

hivefleetkerrigan said:

Fun fact about this as RAW: we could heroically intervene without penalty during that players turn. Overrun and/or 1 step ahead would also not be affected (during your opponents turn) RAW either.

RAI, I'm assuming they mean "is shaken from that point until the start of your next shooting phase."

HI (and pile in/consolidate) would be unaffected anyway: it's not halve all movements or anything.

Overrun/HC would probably fall under the 'as if it were X' thing anyway, regardless of GW's...interesting wording here. And halve charge seems to be a pretty clear case of 'RAW, this does nothing, but it's clearly supposed to do something'. And just like Mordians, people aren't going to let GW's poor wording stop them from using something that's actually supposed to work.

[bigbadbalou]

Didn't there was an argument similar to this about the Lictor? Like it was clearly written it could redirect and bring someone from deepstrike but we can't because no unit could be put in the right "deepstrike room" for it to work?

This looks similar to me as it's clearly written TFC can halve charge, but it can't be applied because the charge is not in the right phase as the rule says...

[mattblowers]

Feb 13, 2020 15:14:05 GMT bigbadbalou said:

Didn't there was an argument similar to this about the Lictor? Like it was clearly written it could redirect and bring someone from deepstrike but we can't because no unit could be put in the right "deepstrike room" for it to work?

This looks similar to me as it's clearly written TFC can halve charge, but it can't be applied because the charge is not in the right phase as the rule says...

But it's Space Marines and it's already been universally accepted whereas we received a specific FAQ whereby Pheremone trail was nerfed to not work outside of power level games.