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Post by kelermorph on Feb 7, 2020 16:19:02 GMT
Hello hive mind!
Can someone clarify does a mind controlled unit retain its chapter bonuses such as master artesans after it has been mind controller? Meaning can I make the re-rolls with it? I assume no, but just wanted to make sure.
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Post by purestrain on Feb 7, 2020 16:26:51 GMT
it becomes apart of your army for the duration, so it therefor cannot have any chapter bonuses as your army isnt SM
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Post by bigbadbalou on Feb 7, 2020 18:53:58 GMT
Just a few questions following that. I don't play space marine so I don't know exactly how their rules are applied.
Is there restriction for a chapter bonus to apply to a unit? Something like "it needs to be in a battle forged detachment"? Or does the Salamander chapter bonus apply to all <salamander> Unit for exemple? Or maybe it is written that only units within your army can use the chapter bonus?
Just asking for clarification.
I'm probably wrong, but it seems odd to me that a unit having innate reroll due to it's chapter, lose that reroll even if it keeps its chapter...
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Post by bigpig on Feb 7, 2020 19:02:42 GMT
it becomes apart of your army for the duration, so it therefor cannot have any chapter bonuses as your army isnt SM I don't know if that is correct, unless there is an FAQ that specifically says it loses it's regiment, etc I'm missing. It says you fire it as if it were you're own unit. That would mean it retains its chapter bonus but doesn't benefit from chapter or unit effects generated by things in the other players army. For example, it wouldn't get any aura benefits or previously utilized stratagems still burning that affect "friendly <chapter> units." In contrast, if your army was all Kraken and you mind controlled an enemy Knonos unit, it would get to reroll ones to hit. Note also that this is how you protect your big hitters from getting mind controlled and shooting you off the table when playing against GSC. Don't want your Castellan getting mind controlled and blowing units off the table? Park it within 1 inch a guardsman. Now when it gets mind controlled it counts as your model but is within 1" of an enemy unit and can't shoot. Melee only
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Post by acehilator on Feb 7, 2020 19:04:33 GMT
Like purestrain said, the controlled unit becomes part of your army, so it loses all bonuses and rules that are not part of the unit's datasheet.
You also have to be careful when selecting a unit to control, if it is within 1" of other models of your opponent's army, it cannot shoot.
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Post by mule on Feb 7, 2020 19:26:26 GMT
You shoot it as if they were shooting it. You benefit from all the auras and etc it normally would. It doesnt become part of your army you use it against your enemy. It isnt a friendly model, you can still smite it in the psychic phase you can cast other things on that unit, you cannot buff the unit with your auras. Etc.
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Post by purestrain on Feb 7, 2020 19:34:20 GMT
You shoot it as if they were shooting it. You benefit from all the auras and etc it normally would. It doesnt become part of your army you use it against your enemy. It isnt a friendly model, you can still smite it in the psychic phase you can cast other things on that unit, you cannot buff the unit with your auras. Etc. "As if it were part of your army" would lead one to assume it would not gain any benefits from anything, as they are now an enemy unit to their army, and the friendly army isnt SM
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Post by dranzyl on Feb 7, 2020 19:55:48 GMT
Food for thought... If it counts as part of your army does that mean that for the duration your army isnt battleforged? I am being silly i know
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 7, 2020 20:06:41 GMT
You shoot it as if they were shooting it. You benefit from all the auras and etc it normally would. It doesnt become part of your army you use it against your enemy. It isnt a friendly model, you can still smite it in the psychic phase you can cast other things on that unit, you cannot buff the unit with your auras. Etc. "As if it were part of your army" would lead one to assume it would not gain any benefits from anything, as they are now an enemy unit to their army, and the friendly army isnt SM Hmmm... Interesting question. I assumed you simply took control of it and shot it as if it were part of your army but retaining all the abilities of the army it came from. Using it the other way it gets a whole bunch weird scenarios that have to be worked out. I think the simplest and most straight forward is that is counts as your model but keeps all the original buffs/abilities. It's such a bad power now anyway, no need to further complicate it.
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Post by mule on Feb 7, 2020 22:39:06 GMT
"As if it were part of your army" would lead one to assume it would not gain any benefits from anything, as they are now an enemy unit to their army, and the friendly army isnt SM Hmmm... Interesting question. I assumed you simply took control of it and shot it as if it were part of your army but retaining all the abilities of the army it came from. Using it the other way it gets a whole bunch weird scenarios that have to be worked out. I think the simplest and most straight forward is that is counts as your model but keeps all the original buffs/abilities. It's such a bad power now anyway, no need to further complicate it. Specially since there are some rules that aren't even tagged with "friendly" also your army is no longer battleforged so you lose keyword benefits so it's just naked stat profile, which often time doesn't seem worth it. I've always played it with full aura's and benefits because its ease of use and it's a 50/50 spell to get off. Inquisition also has it but I couldn't find any erratta of faq that clarify's any of those sorts of things. It's a spell for 3 armies, you'd think they'd answer questions like that in FAQ.
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Post by No One on Feb 8, 2020 5:29:04 GMT
You shoot it as if they were shooting it. You benefit from all the auras and etc it normally would. It doesnt become part of your army you use it against your enemy. It isnt a friendly model, you can still smite it in the psychic phase you can cast other things on that unit, you cannot buff the unit with your auras. Etc. That is, very explicitly, not how it works. It shoots as if it were part of your army. It doesn't get enemy auras (but it would get friendly auras), because it's a friendly unit and part of your army, not the enemies. Traits is...a maybe. It depends on if it's an inherent part of being part of that detachment, then you get X buffs for the course of the game (sort of like adaptations/relics/WLT stuff, all of which you would get). But if it's a buff you get for being part of a battle forged det, that you only get while you're a part of that battle forged det, you'd lose it with MC (personally I think this is weird, and also interacts weirdly with summoning etc, since I see no reason those wouldn't break battleforged if it was a constant check, but anyway). Edit: This is one of those 'seek clarification, expect to be ruled against' things. Because I don't see opponents/TOs rolling with this. Doctrines you definitely wouldn't get: adding an assassin removes it because your army is no longer entirely units with doctrines, and the same would be the case when you mind control them.
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Post by dranzyl on Feb 8, 2020 18:24:02 GMT
I would go with fluff on this one. If it makes sense with the bonuses to be kept i say keep them.
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Post by mule on Feb 8, 2020 18:34:14 GMT
You shoot it as if they were shooting it. You benefit from all the auras and etc it normally would. It doesnt become part of your army you use it against your enemy. It isnt a friendly model, you can still smite it in the psychic phase you can cast other things on that unit, you cannot buff the unit with your auras. Etc. That is, very explicitly, not how it works. It shoots as if it were part of your army. It doesn't get enemy auras (but it would get friendly auras), because it's a friendly unit and part of your army, not the enemies. Traits is...a maybe. It depends on if it's an inherent part of being part of that detachment, then you get X buffs for the course of the game (sort of like adaptations/relics/WLT stuff, all of which you would get). But if it's a buff you get for being part of a battle forged det, that you only get while you're a part of that battle forged det, you'd lose it with MC (personally I think this is weird, and also interacts weirdly with summoning etc, since I see no reason those wouldn't break battleforged if it was a constant check, but anyway). Edit: This is one of those 'seek clarification, expect to be ruled against' things. Because I don't see opponents/TOs rolling with this. Doctrines you definitely wouldn't get: adding an assassin removes it because your army is no longer entirely units with doctrines, and the same would be the case when you mind control them. See sure thats what the rule says, but then you literally need to go through every rule that that model is getting to see if it says friendly or not. Some rules it just says <tag name> get this aura while in 6". You also have to look up rules to see if you only get it if youre battleforged. Its so clunky that if I was a TO id either say you get to shoot it like your opponent shoots it or you shoot it without any benefits at all, like profile only. Which the latter would make people not use it, so i'd lean towards the former.
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Post by No One on Feb 8, 2020 23:47:43 GMT
See sure thats what the rule says, but then you literally need to go through every rule that that model is getting to see if it says friendly or not. Some rules it just says <tag name> get this aura while in 6". You also have to look up rules to see if you only get it if youre battleforged. You should know that anyway, because it's a notable thing and would come up in the mirror match. The only one that isn't friendly (or enemy) that I know of is Skarbrand. It mightn't be literally 100% correct in 100% of cases, but it'd be a perfectly reasonable assumption that it's friendly in 99.9% of cases (possibly even 100%: can you post any others?) The battleforged thing is...I don't know. You wouldn't need to look it up, because it's traits etc. And I don't even know if it matters (see: summoning not affecting traits etc). ...Getting traits and auras is not a deal breaker for this. At all. I've only used it a couple of times, because of short range/within 1" (which, by the by, 'shoot it like your opponent shoots it' would be fine with. Which we know is not the case). With one exception (which I still would've been fine with) I didn't get any benefits from traits etc, either because their were no benefits to be had, or the TO had ruled otherwise.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 9, 2020 0:28:34 GMT
See sure thats what the rule says, but then you literally need to go through every rule that that model is getting to see if it says friendly or not. Some rules it just says <tag name> get this aura while in 6". You also have to look up rules to see if you only get it if youre battleforged. You should know that anyway, because it's a notable thing and would come up in the mirror match. The only one that isn't friendly (or enemy) is Skarbrand. It mightn't be literally 100% correct in 100% of cases, but it'd be a perfectly reasonable assumption that it's friendly in 99.9% of cases (possibly even 100%: can you post any others?) The battleforged thing is...I don't know. You wouldn't need to look it up, because it's traits etc. And I don't even know if it matters (see: summoning not affecting traits etc). ...Getting traits and auras is not a deal breaker for this. At all. I've only used it a couple of times, because of short range/within 1" (which, by the by, 'shoot it like your opponent shoots it' would be fine with. Which we know is not the case). With one exception (which I still would've been fine with) I didn't get any benefits from traits etc, either because their were no benefits to be had, or the TO had ruled otherwise. Playing the devils advocate: it says you get to shoot “as if” it were your part of your army NOT that it is part of your army. Since it also says that you get to shoot ANOTHER enemy model it is reasonable to infer that the effected unit is also an enemy model. Otherwise the word another is redundant and unnessary.
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