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Post by killercroc on Feb 15, 2020 15:26:31 GMT
Just because I'm awake now to do the math there is this. If we're going full tank against marines with all the kit I'll just go the math against Nids with all the kit, just for an example.
6 Zoans VS CM/Lieu buffed bolters~ 104 shots. 104 shots hitting on 3+ w/ RR is 92 hits, 92 hits wounding on 4's w/ RR 1s is 54 wounds, 54 wounds vs 3++ is 18 failed saves so 6 dead Zoans
6 Zoans with Venoms, Mal strat and Cat VS CM/Lieu buffed bolters~ 280 Shots. 280 shots hitting on 4+ w/ RR is 210 hits, 210 hits wounding on 5+ w/ RR 1s is 82 wounds, 82 Wounds against a 3++ is 27 failed saves with finally 27 failed saves against a 5+++ is 18 final wounds killing 6 zoans.
That's 52 marines normally or 140 marines in rapid fire range with a chapter master and a Lieutenant to kill 6 zoans buffed by Catalyst in a Mal and Male auras.
What about Stalkers? Mathematically it's kinda just half not to go full into it but you need 14 failed 3++ to do the same damage to Zoans with full buffs. Since that'll be 38 damage in the pool to get past their 5+++
6 Zoans VS CM/Lieu buffed stalker bolters~ 72 shots. 72 shots hitting on 3+ w/ RR is 64 hits, 64 hits wounding on 4's w/ RR 1s is 36 wounds, 36 wounds vs 3++ is 12 failed saves, 12 failed saves cause every 2 kills a Zoan at 2D each so 6 dead Zoans
6 Zoans with Venoms, Mal strat and Cat VS CM/Lieu buffed stalker bolters~ 146 shots. 146 shots hitting on 4+ w/ RR is 110 hits, 110 hits wounding on 5+ w/ RR 1s is 42 wounds, 82 Wounds against a 3++ is 14 failed saves with finally 14 failed saves is 28 wounds against a 5+++ is 18 final wounds killing 6 zoans.
That's 72 marines normally or 146 marines with Stalker bolters with a chapter master and a Lieutenant to kill 6 zoans buffed by Catalyst in a Mal and Male auras.
Unless I screwed up the math somehow, Stalker bolters are worse against unbuffed Zoans & worse against buff zoans because that 5+++ really screws up their max damage. The fully buffed ones math might be off cause 2D vs 3W with 5++ throws off how many of those 2D get through/don't so I just went up against their entire wound pool, it's probably less though IDK how to math that level of statistics.
If anyone wants to correct me go for it, I just woke up and all I've eaten so far is candy.
[EDIT]
Maths wise, Zoans are tanky against bolters, and extremely tanky when fully buffed out. This isn't counting heavy fire or anything else, just pure bolters. if you're shooting them with 3D weapons then they're a lot less taking but even 3D weapons breaking through that 3++ will require 18 wounds, then math for the hits and shots I just don't think there are enough 3D weapons with that level of firepower to overturn face tanking with Zoans.
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Post by afewveiws on Feb 15, 2020 23:20:39 GMT
So sure, zoans are "tanky" against bolter fire... but why does that matter? The bolters are going to be shredding your gants and those floating heads will be dispatched by the heavy weapons after they focus down the monster buffing them which can be the t1 target for the antitank.
I may have missed a perspective change in here but from what i've read these zoans are part of a gant carpet list with a mal/mala combo? Theres not alot of killing power here so assume the big guns are going to target the zoans and mala and try doing the math on the first 2 turns of bolter fire into your gants. This would be a more relavant stat block for the list style in question.
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Post by gigasnail on Feb 15, 2020 23:27:04 GMT
You dont have to kill 6 zoans, just drop them under 4.
You dont even have to do that until your screens are chewed up.
I cannot express how meh this seems to me, but if you're getting traction with it on the table, more power to you.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 16, 2020 4:52:56 GMT
It's the scoring denial strength, giga.
If it takes 280 shots to kill Zoeys, a Centurion squad has to drop and shoot for 3 turns to kill a Zoey squad, meaning he can't claim "kill", "kill more"or "marked for death" from them for at least 3 turns. You do d3 mortal wounds less but every zoey alive after the 3rd one dies is just more kill denial.
Its the same for Gaunts. If you bring male/mala/Leviathan, it will take more than a full unit of Cents to burn down Gaunts. Contrast to no Maleceptor, enter a unit of Cents will demolish a unit of Gaunts no fail.
The key to beating SM is to weather their alpha strike and punch back, which is why I think the broviathan is the top SM list - it beats all others by being impossible for them to crack open on the drop, and then punching back.
By keeping the Maleceptor in cover, LOS block, you make it impossible for people to kill the anchor, and therefore spend obscene amounts of effort to kill your rest of army.
This isn't your full army, there's a 3rd left for damage components up actually help you score or kill. So while these 2 components are medium to low kill power, your last 1 3td has decent to high kill power.
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Post by gigasnail on Feb 16, 2020 5:25:42 GMT
eh. there's no mystery here, i know what it does. it stands on objectives while the important bits get shot up. whether that's enough to win the game depends on a whole lot of (please do not swear) you won't have control over, LoS blocking terrain big enough to hide a large MC, not running into a fast melee army (because i'm pretty sure middle table zerkers and genestealer slingshot will murder this list), etc.
the zoanthropes are still just dropping smite, which still has the usual issues with targeting the closest unit. i have never been a fan of this style of list and this doesn't do anything for me either.
if you can get this to work in the real, work out man. but it's nothing i'd be interested in playing. i just don't care for it. it's a slog to play and annoying to play against.
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Post by conquest on Feb 16, 2020 6:00:10 GMT
Well whether you think it works or not Id bet money thats gonna be the new meta. Warriors are gonna be confirmed autotake with the new ITC missions packet (provided they dont tweak anything too hard in two weeks). It'd be made to maximize 3W, T4-T5 unit platforms that can be taken in 6-10 man squads; Now I think this will be what most armies tryout, I mention Warriors because they are probably one of the only Troop choices in the game with 3W. Tyranid players already have a plethora of 3W platforms and comparitvely better choices (two being Troop choices which are ACE in a world where once, you could ONLY use rippers, for recon or engineers).
P.S. New Gangbusters can't target Troops choices or Swarms.
P.P.S. I havent seen any lists that use Zoanthropes with a gaunt carpet and that is just a waste of points for zoanthropes at that point. You need to maximize their tankiness by pairing them with likely other tanky units (I.e. Warriors)
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 16, 2020 7:46:54 GMT
Zoanthropes are the anvil in the gaunt carpet list - Very few armies have the tools to deal with the gaunt carpet and a constant smite battery.
Warriors will prevent Gangbusters, but will give up Reaper just as badly as Gaunts (9 man is 27W, so 3 of them gives up full Reaper, and also cost more and are more effective, so I expect them to become a huge priority). This is better than before where 1 full unit gives max BGH for sure, but with Cents doing flat 3 on punch to begin with (you get no save here), Eldar likely taking center stage away from Marines and having the perfect set of weapons to destroy Warriors with (you get no save here), I dont hold much hope for them (Eldar is the army with the next most number of flat 3 damage). I see Tyranids taking up the close 2nd soon too, so expect there to be a number of Dam3 from there flying your way too (you get no save here), making Warriors a bleeding choice.
Zoeys have the same profile problem with a 3++ to seriously stem the bleeding. If you want to maximize Zoey's tankiness, you need to pair them up with Gaunts and MCs. The reason for this is simple - Bolters with Maleceptor will wound Zoeys on 5+, making Bolters a bad choice, but Bolters will shoot at them if there's nothing better to shoot. So if you bring Gaunts, Bolters will target Gaunts with the same mentality you have (effective application of force on best target), hitting on 4s rr and wounding on 4s rr1. That leaves anti-tank weapons to shoot at Zoeys, which will choose Zoeys with the absence of anything else to shoot at. Exocrenes are best situated for this, taking Lascannons on a 4+ to wound and a 5++ from Adaptations usually leaving them alive after taking fire. By the time your army survives the first two turns of abuse (you might be running thin on gaunts by T3, and the Exos might be dead by T3), Zoeys are left in a position where nothing can contest them, and they will just go around smiting everything to death.
I have personally ran GS Sling INTO this style of list and can confirm that GS Sling *DOES NOT WORK* against it. When you charge a unit of GS into Zoanthropes you have to contend with that huge 3++ killing maybe 4 Zoanthropes. You need Fight Again, and assuming the gaunt screen is short in the first place for you to reach it. It then gets smited to death, or near death enough to be a non-factor. If you brought 2 units of GS, the 2nd one eats the guns which will bring it down below 10 man and be a non-factor.
Didnt 2019's Menza Masquerade run with Zoeys and Gaunt Carpet to win?
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Post by purestrain on Feb 16, 2020 12:46:17 GMT
But with Cents doing flat 3 on punch to begin with (you get no save here). How exactly do centurions do 3 damage on punch? they have no melee weapons, unless you mean guns... but they dont have any flat 3 damage guns either... or am I blind?
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Post by xtztxtxz on Feb 16, 2020 12:55:19 GMT
But with Cents doing flat 3 on punch to begin with (you get no save here). How exactly do centurions do 3 damage on punch? they have no melee weapons, unless you mean guns... but they dont have any flat 3 damage guns either... or am I blind? He's talking about Assault Cents with siege drills (& hurricane bolters).
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Post by purestrain on Feb 16, 2020 12:56:47 GMT
But with Cents doing flat 3 on punch to begin with (you get no save here). How exactly do centurions do 3 damage on punch? they have no melee weapons, unless you mean guns... but they dont have any flat 3 damage guns either... or am I blind? He's talking about Assault Cents with siege drills (& hurricane bolters). Oh snap, my bad. continue.
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Post by purestrain on Feb 16, 2020 12:59:12 GMT
A quick question though, how can something that probably weighs as much as a carnifex wield weapons that ARENT literally grown into its body with no negative modifier but said carnifex cant?
GW literally has no idea on how powerful biology really is.
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Post by kazetanade on Feb 16, 2020 13:04:04 GMT
Because the Centurion suit is basically an Exo or Power suit. It's a Space Marine in a Power Armor Suit wearing a Bigger Power Suit, something like that.
Assault Devs come equipped with Sx2, AP-4, 3D punch weapons base, and can take 2x Flamer and 1x Hurricane Bolter as add on weapons.
Dev Cents are bad for most armies, other than RG/WS who can deposit them within range of their preferred target, but WS has nothing that buffs Dev Cents. The only Cents really worth talking about right now are Assault Cents.
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Post by purestrain on Feb 16, 2020 14:08:00 GMT
Because the Centurion suit is basically an Exo or Power suit. It's a Space Marine in a Power Armor Suit wearing a Bigger Power Suit, something like that. Assault Devs come equipped with Sx2, AP-4, 3D punch weapons base, and can take 2x Flamer and 1x Hurricane Bolter as add on weapons. Dev Cents are bad for most armies, other than RG/WS who can deposit them within range of their preferred target, but WS has nothing that buffs Dev Cents. The only Cents really worth talking about right now are Assault Cents. And Carnifex are warriors that have no brain but 9k% more muscle and sinew, it makes no sense at all for things such as power suits and dreadnoughts to be able to wield their weapons with no penalty but expect a bioform to somehow not be able to do this makes little sense. How come abberant have a -1 to hit with hammers? they have THREE arms! They just dont care, thats the only answer lol.
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Post by purestrain on Feb 16, 2020 14:09:21 GMT
But this is digression. On topic, how do you deal with such things? they just chew through chaff and slap you to bits...?
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Post by sasel on Feb 16, 2020 16:15:35 GMT
I think the biggest buff for our close combat is that all Tau talk about driving farsight enclave and not about tau sept.
also because the Y´vahra makes the 5+ overwach no longer seem so important and the improvements for farsight enlave are simply good. but probably only an Y´vahra will be played, which is why we can do better (mass hybnosis). a 5+ feel
no pain is also significantly better if the opponent can only hit with 6+ (overwatch). Our advantage here is also that the popular armies are ranged armies. Since you can count on significantly more vehicles due to the new AM, IF will probably be played more than IH. They are all just predictions from streamers that I have linked to our army, but the predictions
from streamers sound at least logical.
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