|
|
Post by phayze on Jan 30, 2020 17:50:27 GMT
Alright so everyone and their grandmother knows about kraken genestealers being shoved up the field by swarmlord. Tried and true way to tie armies up if you get the first turn. Now with BoB out we get some pretty new toys and some fresh ideas come to hit the table.
I've been away from this board for a while, so forgive me if this idea was already posted, but me and my competetive group were spitting ideas around and trying to come up with some nifty lists. We threw around a list with a million carnifex with prey-sight and regrowth, and fell in love with the idea of durastealers.
Currently I've been having great success with 2 blobs of 9 jormungandr warriors with enhanced resisitance. They're a very durable platform with their accompanying damage reduction stratagem, they hold their own in melee with dual boneswords, and can put some damage out with deathspitters and venom cannons. However I am giving up Gangbusters in ITC games every match, and i lose out of some board control with comparatively smaller units, especially with only having an 8" move.
My meta doesnt have iron wareiors or imperial fists, and LVO hardly had any in their meta either, so here's an alternative to the warriors. Jormungander genestealers with extended carapace and enhanced resistance.
They move faster than warriors, they have more wounds than warriors, and they have a boatload more attacks than the warriors. With the jormungandr cover bonus, they have a 3+/5++ ignoring AP-1 and -2. The opponent needs AT weapons or brrrt guns to remove the single wound models reliably. Even after advancing or charging into combat, they still have that 4+/5++ while ignoring AP-1/-2.
Now obviously the issue is that they lose advancing and charging, but you can work around that pretty easily. Ypu can still bring swarmlord and move a single unit up 16" before charging, or keep them out in the open for your opponent to try to remove (excellent with catalyst on them this way). Additionally with jormungandr you can get a very reliable charge off with a second unit AND a broodlord AND a trygon prime with the arachnyte gland.
Put the prime in deepstrike, bring the stealers with him in the tunnel, and use the jormungandr stratagem to bring the broodlord along as well. Pop them all out over 9" from your opponent's squishy bits and charge the prime in. 3d6 your pick charge into combat, then use the 1cp hive instinct stratagem to get your stealers and broodlord in with a 3d6 charge for charging the target within 1" of a synapse creature, and if your prime killed a squishy infantry model with its shooting, one of the three units can get a 4D6 take your pick charge! Useful for getting that broodlord around the stealers, or ensuring that your prime gets in so the others can get in too. Using it on the prime gives you a 69.5% chance of rolling at least a 9 on 4d6 dropping lowest 2, and a 52.3% on 3d6 dropping the lowest 1.
I'm not saying that losing out on the warrior's shooting and the loss of advance and charge is totally worth it, but for similar points you get a unit with more attacks and an invuln to fall back on if your opponent is running stalkers.
What are your thoughts on all of this? At the very least I'm excited to try the stealer tunnel bomb out. 3 very nasty targets dropped in your opponent's backfield is enough to get them backpedaling.
|
|
|
|
Post by zimko on Jan 30, 2020 18:08:00 GMT
20 Genestealers with extended carapace is 280 pts while 9 warriors with deathspitters, boneswords and venoms is 246 pts (cheaper if you mix some talons in to eat the initial wounds). So it's at least 36 pts extra. You lose range attacks but gain 2" of movement and a lot more melee attacks. You also gain more bodies and a 5++.
Honestly, the +1 to armor save barely makes a difference here. We are basically debating the difference between just 20 genestealers at 240 pts and 9 warriors at 240 pts. In ITC, I'm finding genestealers to be performing fine in Behemoth with the +1 to wound. Warriors give up gang busters and are good at taking mid-field objectives but that's less important in ITC, and Genestealers can take objectives too.
|
|
|
|
Post by phayze on Jan 30, 2020 18:15:05 GMT
Technically +2 to their save, because of the 4+ carapace save plus cover bonus.
Here's my idea for a list using it all:
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) [71 PL, 6CP, 1,206pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Battle-forged CP [3CP]
Detachment CP [5CP]
Hive Fleet: Jormungandr
Stratagem: Bounty of the Hive Fleet [-1CP]: 1 Extra Bio-artefact
Stratagem: Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Broodlord [8 PL, 115pts]: Power: The Horror
The Swarmlord [15 PL, 250pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: Lurking Maws
+ Troops +
Genestealers [16 PL, 280pts]: 5x Acid Maw
. Adaptive Physiology: Enhanced Resistance
. 20x Genestealer: 20x Extended Carapace, 20x Rending Claws, 20x Scything Talons
Genestealers [16 PL, 280pts]: 5x Acid Maw
. Adaptive Physiology: Enhanced Resistance
. 20x Genestealer: 20x Extended Carapace, 20x Rending Claws, 20x Scything Talons
Hormagaunts [6 PL, 100pts]: 20x Hormagaunt
+ Heavy Support +
Trygon Prime [10 PL, 181pts]: 3x Massive Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Arachnacyte Gland, Biostatic Rattle, Toxin Sacs
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) [50 PL, 5CP, 791pts] ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Detachment CP [5CP]
Hive Fleet: Kronos
+ HQ +
Malanthropes [5 PL, 120pts]
. Malanthrope
Neurothrope [4 PL, 90pts]: Power: Symbiostorm, Resonance Barb, Warlord
+ Troops +
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm
+ Elites +
Hive Guard [13 PL, 172pts]
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
. Hive Guard: Impaler Cannon
+ Heavy Support +
Exocrine [11 PL, 155pts]
Exocrine [11 PL, 155pts]
++ Total: [121 PL, 11CP, 1,997pts] ++
|
|
|
|
Post by zimko on Jan 30, 2020 18:20:41 GMT
It's not a +2 though. You can already run Genestealers at their normal price in jorm and get a +1 (assuming you don't advance). Instead, you're paying 40 pts to get another +1 and being forced into not being able to advance and charge. You could save 80 pts and just run 4+ armor genestealers that can advance/charge on turn 2 or 3 when they're close enough to do so.
|
|
|
|
Post by zimko on Jan 30, 2020 18:25:13 GMT
In that list in particular, the 80 pts saved could be used for 2 more Hive Guard if you can find 3 spare points somewhere.
|
|
|
|
Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jan 30, 2020 18:51:06 GMT
I wish extended carapace was free. Then it would actually be a choice for if I wanted to run them up the board or use them as tanky charge deterrent.
As for the idea, it might have some legs but I think it would be good to test it out and see how it goes.
|
|
|
|
Post by bigbadbalou on Jan 30, 2020 21:19:10 GMT
Mmmmm... I guess the carapace and jorms would be so you can fully benefit from enhanced resistance? Basically you are traiding a "3d6 advance and charge" ability for a +2 armor save when not advancing or +1 if advancing without cover (which without ER, could be relatively easily lost and be defaulted on theirs 5++ against -1 or -2AP weapons)? Making 2/3 of the saves (3+) instead of only 1/3 (5+) of them is nothing to scoff at. But at some point, you could also ask what does they benefit more from with extended carapace: one more +1 to save when not advancing or 3d6 advance move and disengage/charge? Does Jorms bring something else i'm missing?
I think it might be a good idea in a Trygon taxi like you said. But I would only use 1 unit of stealers that way. Maybe arrange to have the taxi arriving next to a malceptor or malanthrope and wait for a full charge the turn after they arrive (thus keeping the cover save of jorm)? With that many GS so close the theirs line, the opponent has to deal with them. If they target a unit with 3+, 5++, -1str or -1 hit... now that is some major distraction from the rest of your army.
The carapace with enhanced resistance is not a bad idea, i'd like to hear from that. But to fully go carapace and jorm and adaptive physiology to make this works seems a bit high of a price when compared to the effectiveness of kraken GS...
|
|
|
|
Post by xtztxtxz on Jan 30, 2020 21:43:44 GMT
There are two main situations I can see 'stealers needing this to soak a lot of firepower: 1) Your unit is stuck out in the open after winning a combat or the enemy falling back. In that case it's very likely you made a charge last turn and won't have the Jorm bonus anyway. In that case why not have the Kraken bonus to use with Overrun? or 2) You arrive from deep strike and don't risk a charge. Makes for a nice distraction carnifex, providing you can also get other defensive buffs on the unit AND your opponent can't ignore cover benefits. But it's very a expensive unit for that role, and you're probably far better off using Warriors instead. It's like slapping armour on a race car when you have a perfectly good battletank available. As hivefleetkerrigan says it would be a harder choice if extended carapace was free. But giving up a strong ability AND paying an extra ~15% for the unit seems wrong to me. |
|
|
|
Post by phayze on Jan 30, 2020 22:25:18 GMT
There are two main situations I can see 'stealers needing this to soak a lot of firepower: 1) Your unit is stuck out in the open after winning a combat or the enemy falling back. In that case it's very likely you made a charge last turn and won't have the Jorm bonus anyway. In that case why not have the Kraken bonus to use with Overrun? or 2) You arrive from deep strike and don't risk a charge. Makes for a nice distraction carnifex, providing you can also get other defensive buffs on the unit AND your opponent can't ignore cover benefits. But it's very a expensive unit for that role, and you're probably far better off using Warriors instead. It's like slapping armour on a race car when you have a perfectly good battletank available. As hivefleetkerrigan says it would be a harder choice if extended carapace was free. But giving up a strong ability AND paying an extra ~15% for the unit seems wrong to me. I agree that the armor shouldn't cost anything. I'm trying to make it work as best I can. I'll at least run it a couple times to see how I like it. As for overrun I'm HOPING that I'll be competent enough to wipe out a unit on their turn, or at the very least tie up as many shooting sources I can at once. That way if they disengage they're shooting with less, and if they've been consolidating around for a turn their jorm bonus will turn back on even after disengaging. It's really for the first turn bonus I suppose. Maybe thats not worth the cost, we'll see. |
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jan 31, 2020 1:41:26 GMT
Durastealers soak well only with Maleceptor. Otherwise it's a lot of points for not really a lot of impact. Warriors can still shoot back, a gebestealer unit that lost 8 guys to a max cent unit can't actually charge anything anymore.
|
|
|
|
Post by No One on Jan 31, 2020 2:09:12 GMT
Put the prime in deepstrike, bring the stealers with him in the tunnel, and use the jormungandr stratagem to bring the broodlord along as well. Pop them all out over 9" from your opponent's squishy bits and charge the prime in. 3d6 your pick charge into combat, then use the 1cp hive instinct stratagem to get your stealers and broodlord in with a 3d6 charge for charging the target within 1" of a synapse creature, and if your prime killed a squishy infantry model with its shooting, one of the three units can get a 4D6 take your pick charge! Useful for getting that broodlord around the stealers, or ensuring that your prime gets in so the others can get in too. Using it on the prime gives you a 69.5% chance of rolling at least a 9 on 4d6 dropping lowest 2, and a 52.3% on 3d6 dropping the lowest 1. No. With no rerolls, this is bad. It is not "a very reliable charge". The odds of a 4d6 and a 3d6 are 35%. The odds of getting the stealers in are better than that (since you could still make the stealer charge, especially if you 3d6 the stealers instead of 4d6 the trygon). But you're probably looking at a 50/50 of the stealers making it in, ignoring any issues with procing hunters drive (i.e. killing a relevant target and not increasing your charge distance from them pulling models). |
|
|
|
Post by phayze on Jan 31, 2020 3:16:36 GMT
Perhaps I used the wrong words then. I suppose meant that it was comparatively reliable. Compared to the normal 2d6 charge from deepstrike being successful 33% of the time (41.6% with AG), the 3d6 and 4d6 charges are very much more reliable to get off.
|
|
|
|
Post by naviedzony on Jan 31, 2020 12:23:05 GMT
I would rather go with Behemoth Genestealers charging from the Trygon Prime tunnel with said Trygon Prime being Massive Size and having bio-artifact Adrenal Glands (charging on 3d6). This Trygon can then lure Genestealers behind himself with another stratagem. But this is overcomplicated and easy to outplay, I think.
|
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Feb 1, 2020 7:03:06 GMT
You want the Behemoth spell going off for them to be effective, so dropping with a TPrime makes getting the spell on them rather difficult. Otherwise there is no reason to play Behemoth GS (due to GSC inbuilt abilities, its questionable whether this is even a good idea, since you can get similar results with less points. 240+197= 440, GSC is 150+53+55=250, Magus+BB for filler = 83+80+250=410).
On a flip side, with Behemoth spell going off on them, Dura stealers in Behemoth can tank around half a unit dead and probably still get work done, so that's something to look at (no maths, just gutfeel). I'll be testing this in a week's time at a small RTT and will let you guys know how it goes.
|
|
|
|
Post by naviedzony on Feb 3, 2020 9:20:34 GMT
We both know, that still Kraken sling is the most viable tactic. It's just looking for the best option from all the non-optimal ones.
|
|
