constant point adjustments but rarely PL changes

[originaltyranid]

I notice points change all the time but PL rarely changes.

The carnifex thread made me realise the carnifex (codex varities) are all 6 PL

But the forge world stone crusher is PL 5.

Are  the codex over costed or is stone crusher under costed?

[killercroc]

As far as I'v ever looked at it PL is a pretty bad way to build a list mainly because units with the most wargear get the most out of it and PL is an average for wargear not anything solid. The rule of thumb was roughly 20 pts per PL if I remember right but a lot of units don't check that with points change. Basically if GW is changing points PL should change too but my guess is people that do PL are just doing it casually and don't care as much, or GW just dropped their new game mode in the trash becaus emost people didn't care.

Oh, PL wise I'd say it's just messy as a Carnifex ranges from 82 points at the cheapest and 129 at the most making the PL range go from 6 to 8. Point wise the carnifex is too much, but PL to it's points is too cheap. Carnifex should be like 55-60 base and 7 PL to match up the system.

[Overread]

Power levels are a super casual way to build armies. The system itself lacks any fine-tuning even at its inception because units can take different wargear and weapon options that drastically changes their performance and "power" and yet the power level remains the same single fixed cost on the unit page.

Because of that it will never be all that reliable a system.

It's sort of there for making quick start up games on the fly and for more casual players who might be looking at a more narrative or open approach to games. Where both players have expectations of a game where killing/winning isn't the primary goal.



So it makes sense that GW doesn't adjust the values as the values to start with aren't that fine a tool to balance out the game.
Points are a much more fine grain system as what options you take cost points. An Eldar Wraithlord can be totally plain or loaded up with multiple powerful ranged weapons - both cost the same in power levels. There's no point adjusting the value of the model all that much when you're already not adjusting it for its weapon loadout.

I honestly can't tell if PL is something GW tried half hearted and have mostly abandoned or if its just really there for the super casual approach to the game and has a market, just not one you'll typically find online in forums.

[originaltyranid]

Power level is a more casual approach but thus far playing since 8th launched it has worked very well with my play group.
We have
Me playing Nids GSG IG and Inquisition
A Dark Angels player
Thousand Sons and Tzeetch demons with some Black Legion
Imperial fist /Death Guard player
Ultramarines and Necrons
Eldar /Grey Knights

We play a game or three a week since 8th dropped and most games have been very good.
Overall PL has sped set up and play time.

I would stress you need play WYSIWYG with PL or it can be abused. (we will make exceptions for people to try things)

[No One]

originaltyranid said:

Overall PL has sped set up and play time.

...I can't remember the last time I had a game where both players didn't already have a list built, so I'm not sure how it makes any difference here.

PL is bad for anything but the most casual stuff, and it doesn't get changed except if the datasheet's being updated anyway (i.e. new Codex): some of the FW stuff changed by hundreds (maybe even thousands) of points, but no PL changes. Yeah...

[N.I.B.]

Jan 21, 2020 18:22:22 GMT originaltyranid said:

I notice points change all the time but PL rarely changes.

Because no one uses it or cares, not even GW.

[infornography]

I just wish GW would put the points values on the datasheets like they used to. Hiding the points value at the end of the book makes is infuriating to try to get a feel for the unit when reading through as you have to flip to like 4 different parts of the book to understand what the unit can do and the points values especially repeatedly.

I don't care one way or the other about PL being an option, but I want points in a more accessible location.

I actually bought an old ipad and digital Codexes (codecies?) just so I wouldn't have to flip around quite so much, which may have been part of GW's plan to begin with, but if so, man is that awful of them.

[naviedzony]

Jan 23, 2020 14:52:39 GMT infornography said:

I just wish GW would put the points values on the datasheets like they used to. Hiding the points value at the end of the book makes is infuriating to try to get a feel for the unit when reading through as you have to flip to like 4 different parts of the book to understand what the unit can do and the points values especially repeatedly.

I don't care one way or the other about PL being an option, but I want points in a more accessible location.

I am so pissed, when I try to figure out what is the exact cost of some unit and I have to go look for their wargear, check the unit's cost, the wargear cost, check for the upgrades, check the weapon stats, check the cost of the upgrades and weapons and so on. And nothing is worse than the model, which has three types of non-optional equipment, and you have to check if this model's point cost is actually higher than it should be, because of some weapon (that this model just has to have) is priced for a couple of points. I'm looking at you Lictor and especially at you Trygon Prime.

Honestly, I thought Tygons are very cool units for their point costs, when I started playing Nids, just to discover the next day that they are actually 60 POINTS MORE EXPENSIVE! O__o

Point costs of unupgraded models should be written just beside the datasheets or on them and the point cost for the weapons and upgrades should be written where weapons and upgrades rules are.

[xtztxtxz]

If they had printed points on datasheets they'd nearly all be wrong by now anyway. Now that Chapter Approved is finally printing all points together rather than just changes, the current way is probably the least bad way.

Would be far better if GW would move to a proper digital rules set, but they must be making too much from people buying printed copies so all we have is Battlescribe.

[xtztxtxz]

Speaking of PL changes...

www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/24/new-rules-incoming-for-forge-world-modelsgw-homepage-post-2fw-homepage-post-3/

New rules incoming for our Forge World units. Will the Dimachaeron still be our worst unit? Place your bets now!

[mattblowers]

Jan 24, 2020 13:30:20 GMT xtztxtxz said:

Speaking of PL changes...

www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/24/new-rules-incoming-for-forge-world-modelsgw-homepage-post-2fw-homepage-post-3/

New rules incoming for our Forge World units. Will the Dimachaeron still be our worst unit? Place your bets now!

Your guess is as good as a shoe's. FW has always been such a (please do not swear) shoot I have no doubt that we will still see some sort of mix of completely unusable units sprinkled in with a few ridiculously cheap and massively over powered ones. It's the FW way.

[xtztxtxz]

The main reason for this is that FW unit rules are now written by the main studio staff who do the codexes. FW themselves just focus on 30k & specialist games. I'm curious to see what happens...

[N.I.B.]

Dimachaeron rules - now brought to you by the people that gave you the Haruspex and the Lictor!

[mattblowers]

Jan 24, 2020 14:20:12 GMT N.I.B. said:

Dimachaeron rules - now brought to you by the people that gave you the Haruspex and the Lictor!

And pyrovore that we were promised "is so good you'll want one in every list".

and tervigon

and maleceptor (outside the new strat, who uses?)

and nevermind, you get the point.

We are (please do not swear) either way.

[killercroc]

Pyrovores are actually good I would take them in every list... just not for that cost. Nor will I convert them from Hive Guard. GW needs to release some Bio/Pyro plastics already