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Post by bigpig on Jan 9, 2020 13:30:32 GMT
****EDIT Scratch both of these concepts. Updated list in thread************
Well I guess I might as well figure this out. I have two archetypes I'm looking at, basically shown below. The first is a swarm/stealer slingshot. The second is a big bug shooting list combining jormungandr and kronos
LIST 1
++ Battalion Detachment++
Hive Fleet: Behemoth
Neurothrope Unending Hunger
The Swarmlord The Horror, Catalyst
19x Genestealer
19x Genestealer
3x Ripper Swarm
++ Battalion Detachment ++
Hive Fleet: Behemoth
Malanthropes
Tervigon: Resonance Barb, Onslaught
27x Hormagaunt
30x Termagant
30x Termagant
++ Vanguard Detachment++
Hive Fleet: Kronos
Neurothrope
Lictor
Lictor
6 Impaler Cannon Hive Guard
2x Biovore
++ Total: [123 PL, 2000pts] ++
This list scores with regenerating engineers and king of the hill plus probably recon. Stealer slingshot of course provides a big early game punch and does what it does to keep pressure off the rest of the army and let them do work. I've had mixed but overall positive results in playtesting on the Tervigon. If I an get off two birthings it has pretty much done more than I would get out of a Neuro. Like anything, it can be focused down but the 2+/5++ really adds resiliency and if I go second, it can help the swarmlord to live to do its thing. Thunderfire cannons obviously suck, which is why 3 potential slingshot targets with the hormagaunts.
LIST 2
++ Battalion Detachment++
Hive Fleet: Jormungandr
Hive Tyrant: Heavy Venom Cannon, Monstrous Rending Claws
Malanthropes
10 Termagant
10x Termagant
30x Termagant
Carnifex Brood
. Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Stranglethorn Cannon, Spore Cysts, Monstrous Scything Talons
. Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Heavy Venom Cannon, Spore Cysts, Two Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots
Carnifexes Brood
. Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Heavy Venom Cannon, Spore Cysts, Two Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots
. Carnifex: Enhanced Senses, Heavy Venom Cannon, Spore Cysts, Two Deathspitters with Slimer Maggots
Exocrine
. Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
++ Battalion Detachment++
Hive Fleet: Kronos
Hive Tyrant: Adrenal Glands, Monstrous Rending Claws, Stranglethorn Cannon, Wings
Neurothrope
3 Ripper Swarms
3 Ripper Swarms
3 Ripper Swarms
6 Impaler Cannon Hive Guard
Exocrine
Tyrannocyte: 5x Deathspitter
++ Total: [119 PL, -1CP, 2,000pts] ++
This list has much less board presence and instead goes all in on shooting. One Fex has MSC and the foot tryant has MRCs to work as a backfield safety but that is it. The winged flyant is a free safety that can also provide synapse to the kronos exocrine if I drop it forward (weapons loadout on this guy is not set). 4HVC, 2STC (cuz 2w marines), 2 exocrines, 11 Deathspitters, and 6 HiveGuard puts out a lot of shots. Jormungandr warlord trait is an amazing boon against all the stealthy marines out there, especially eliminators, scouts, etc. This list struggles against eldar flyer spam and Tau drone spam, but does better against marines. It also dislikes melee lists and hordes.
Any thoughts are welcome. I'm really at a loss on which way to go, or scrap it and do something completely different... including just playing my list from last year. Every way I look has blind spots to one of the power factions out there (such as go first or lose against TFC heavy lists for the first one). I kind of feel like we aren't in a place right now where pure nids can't manage a take all comers approach and pretty much have to play skew lists, and that is the way I've kind of gone on these.
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Post by No One on Jan 9, 2020 14:43:36 GMT
4HVC, 2STC (cuz 2w marines) HVC get wound on 2s and AP-2, so actually come out about the same into stock intercessors (i.e. basically ideal scenario bar full 10 man). Stealthy, aggressors, cents or just another faction entirely? HVC comes out ahead. |
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Post by bigpig on Jan 9, 2020 14:45:23 GMT
4HVC, 2STC (cuz 2w marines) HVC get wound on 2s and AP-2, so actually come out about the same into stock intercessors (i.e. basically ideal scenario bar full 10 man). Stealthy, aggressors, cents or just another faction entirely? HVC comes out ahead. Noted. Swap incoming |
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Post by wormlord666 on Jan 10, 2020 16:39:50 GMT
I tried a shooty Kronos list yesterday against resilient eldar. (Wave sephants and wraithlords) We do have some problem with shooting at T8. Venomcannons are ok but 36”, beeing ”not-flying” and no invuls fexes can be taken out in my experience. I look to shoot infantry and fight tanks/knights now.
Therefor I think your first option is more playable with swarmlord and possibly UH-stealers providing T8 kills.
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Post by mule on Jan 12, 2020 3:48:36 GMT
List one is flatout better. You'll have more success. But im really scared of IH assault cents just literally killing both your termagant squads turn 1 with forward deployment.
Its not unheard of for cents to clear out 60-80 boys in a turn so 60 gants shouldn't be an issue.
So if, that happens your max on secondaries becomes 8 whilst also pretty much guarenteeing reaper for them.
I think getting terma terva combo is hard on 3 units. You honestly want to adapt them all and you just can't cause well.. gw.
I think your best bet is to just take the unit as a custom fleet instead. Giving you a 6++ on the gants might help keep them alive a bit longer paired with biosphere for the tervigon to just get a 5++ adapt then 6+ ignore wound hive fleet trait. That said you give up behemoth utility but you can swap the rippers in the first batt and move them to the tervigon one and put the horma's in the swarmy batt and you're set!
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Post by bigpig on Jan 12, 2020 10:32:07 GMT
List one is flatout better. You'll have more success. But im really scared of IH assault cents just literally killing both your termagant squads turn 1 with forward deployment. Its not unheard of for cents to clear out 60-80 boys in a turn so 60 gants shouldn't be an issue. So if, that happens your max on secondaries becomes 8 whilst also pretty much guarenteeing reaper for them. I think getting terma terva combo is hard on 3 units. You honestly want to adapt them all and you just can't cause well.. gw. I think your best bet is to just take the unit as a custom fleet instead. Giving you a 6++ on the gants might help keep them alive a bit longer paired with biosphere for the tervigon to just get a 5++ adapt then 6+ ignore wound hive fleet trait. That said you give up behemoth utility but you can swap the rippers in the first batt and move them to the tervigon one and put the horma's in the swarmy batt and you're set! I agree on the list one concept. After a few runs though, I'm not sold on the viability of the tervigon. With the full on horde approach, the termies aren't being targetted until after horms and stealers. In theory, this means that I keep the engineers and termies up end game and outlast.. but in practice I'm finding it just means "win more" or "lose more." In most games, terms arent being taretted early so tervigon does little to make a real difference for outcome. Also, in some it just gives a target for big guns on turns 1 and 2 as I focus on hiding Swarmie and it dies..... Some mods in the works |
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 13, 2020 0:19:57 GMT
I don't like how all 3 of your secondaries for list 1 is time locked, and you lack any sort of big target punch other than Hungry Genestealer Sling. HG could pull weight assuming they're left untargeted.
Now based on LVO terrain setup, I think HG starting on the table is viable, but that's going to eat up SLs and GS space. I'm not sure you can fit a whole unit behind the flat walls. Getting blown up in deployment zone looks realistically plausible.
Add points 1 and 2 together, I'd feel it a really bad combination. Early game aggressive scoring army that runs out of steam quickly but playing with an attrition strategy, does it work?
If you abandon the Tervigon and drop in an Exocrene via pod you'll probably have greater results just having more damage tools on hand.
On a side note, I found it really intruiging reading recent threads about encaphalic diffusion on Genestealers, pair with the right buffs makes them ridiculously tanky. As an example, 2x units with Venomthropes + dynamic cover + T1 cover + plates + Encaphalic means centurion status vs small arms fire - you go nowhere with bolters and HB into Genestealers, rendering those Centurions pretty much dead in water. Guns with -3 are a non factor either way. So only S6 guns are unaffected, meaning assault canons on storm talons and Riptides pretty much, both of which are adversely affected by -1 to hit.
That leaves only TFCs which have an unlikeable impact, which can be sorted via GSC, going first, or having more than 2 units for charging.
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Post by bigpig on Jan 13, 2020 5:00:15 GMT
I don't like how all 3 of your secondaries for list 1 is time locked, and you lack any sort of big target punch other than Hungry Genestealer Sling. HG could pull weight assuming they're left untargeted. Now based on LVO terrain setup, I think HG starting on the table is viable, but that's going to eat up SLs and GS space. I'm not sure you can fit a whole unit behind the flat walls. Getting blown up in deployment zone looks realistically plausible. Add points 1 and 2 together, I'd feel it a really bad combination. Early game aggressive scoring army that runs out of steam quickly but playing with an attrition strategy, does it work? If you abandon the Tervigon and drop in an Exocrene via pod you'll probably have greater results just having more damage tools on hand. On a side note, I found it really intruiging reading recent threads about encaphalic diffusion on Genestealers, pair with the right buffs makes them ridiculously tanky. As an example, 2x units with Venomthropes + dynamic cover + T1 cover + plates + Encaphalic means centurion status vs small arms fire - you go nowhere with bolters and HB into Genestealers, rendering those Centurions pretty much dead in water. Guns with -3 are a non factor either way. So only S6 guns are unaffected, meaning assault canons on storm talons and Riptides pretty much, both of which are adversely affected by -1 to hit. That leaves only TFCs which have an unlikeable impact, which can be sorted via GSC, going first, or having more than 2 units for charging. Kaz, I'm with you and this is where I"m now heading. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) ++ Hive Fleet: Kronos Neurothrope: Power: Symbiostorm Neurothrope: Power: Onslaught Ripper Swarms: 7x Ripper Swarm Ripper Swarms: 3x Ripper Swarm 10x Termagant (Fleshborer) Lictor 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon Biovores: 3x Biovore ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) ++ Hive Fleet: Behemoth Neurothrope: Power: Unstoppable Hunger, Resonance Barb The Swarmlord: Power: Catalyst, Power: Onslaught Genestealers: 19x Genestealer Genestealers: 19x Genestealer Hormagaunts: 27x Hormagaunt 30x Termagant (Fleshborer) Venomthropes: 3x Venomthrope ++ Total: [111 PL, 1,807pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net) 200 points to play with I need to get a few more games in with the idea. Terv isn't working out AT ALL in enough of my practice games for the reasons outlined. HG on the table is generally solid at LVO even with the tables outlined. Those tables are the top 100, which I don't expect to see as much of this year as last, cuz.... nids in the current meta  . I'm really shooting for 3-3 or 4-2 to try and keep a hold on my BIF ranking. FLG still has hundreds of magic boxes and other ruins that will be on the other 350-400 tables. For secondaries I'm looking at Recon, PROBABLY Engineers, and third kill focused strat. If I can't pull Recon, I've lost hard anyways because of bad matchup or dice. For engineers it is one big Gaunt unit and an oversized unit of (wait for it....) rippers. Shots fired at the 30 man gaunt squad are shots not going into stealers, etc. Yes it can be gunned down, but at -1 and 30bodies, that takes some direct attention. If they die, then the rippers come in on turn 2 and start capping engineers till end game. With -1 from strat and -1 from Venom/Malanthrope (if I put it in the Behemoth detachment for an extra 33pts and +1 drop) they can be very survivable. If they live, rippers come in 3 and cap an alternate objective. The third is an opponent based kill objective. I'm adding in a third biovore. The spore mines have been so clutch and can be amazing against so many opponents. Blocking/slowing possessed bombs, knights, and disco's is of course wonderful. The price point is good now So what to do with the 200points? I need more kill. Exocrine is solid, but I think it just adds a target for the big guns turn 1. Add the tyranocyte and its pricey, but still manageable. Malaceptor is an intriguing choice... maybe with one buffed armor plate stealer unit and the other more shielded? It just doesn't add kill meaning I'm doubling down on HG. I also don't have a mal and getting one together could be an issue in time. Mawloc + more biovores. Mawloc intrigues me because of its ability to target support characters pushing up possessed bombs and reach out and hit eldar gunlines, Tau castles, and other things that don't like MWs. They just get shut down by infiltrators is all.... .but I go back to my thoughts on gearing just for marines. I feel gearing for the anti marine crowd is the way to go. Flyrant for backfield surgical stuff... meh. He'll die, but maybe DS gargoyles for more board control Thoughts on all those musings? |
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 13, 2020 8:17:00 GMT
Few thoughts in mind:
- I don't know what the Aeldari counter marine meta is. I've looked at Fliers and tbh those don't really cut it, I may have won my marine matchup with a WK but it doesn't mean I couldn't have lost hard - he screwed up on target priority and DS decisions. Not to mention theres the IH All Fliers list that also counters other Fliers. If anything, I expect this faction list to be high invul focused to tank the marine alphastrike and hit back, since marines don't handle Invuls that well.
- Tau is always just going to be a Triptide Castle with tonnes of Drones, as long as you can deal with that then it's a non factor.
I don't know the other factions well enough to make guesses, and to my knowledge the only other faction able to put up a fight is well played Orks, so I'd just prepare to deal with like 120 or 150 Orks Boyz or something ludicrous, since that'll tag any potential GSC or Tyranid matchup.
The common point between them all, and the major SM lists, is that they're all inefficient at dealing with many multiples of T7+ chassis. With a Maleceptor, even T6 chassises have a fair degree of survivability.
The main guns you'd have to deal with:
- Bolters/Shuriken
- HBs/Pulse
- AC/HBC/Star Cannons/ScatLas
- AutoCannons/ variant
- Bright Lance/Melta/Plasma/Cyclic
- Lascannon
- Executioner Cannons
So at T7 + Maleceptor you basically invalidate small arms, and make the major fear weapons of Lance/Plasma/MLs and Cyclic become an annoyance. The only things that don't change are Las and Exec, which are on platforms that don't let you kill multiples in a turn to begin with. If you're really set on counter-counter meta, while addressing current meta, having a list built around 7+ CFexes then MCs and Warriors/cheap chaff is *probably* the best way forward.
If you're keyed into GS Sling, then know that you are fighting both meta and counter meta with the same difficulty, since everything is going to shred infantry pretty bad.
That said, with your current GS Sling and 200 pts, the easiest and highest return choice is an Exo + Pod. This tech option gives you methods of dealing with T7 Dreadnoughts, anything T6, anything with a 2+ save, anything with a 3+ sv, and even does fair work vs T8 Executioners, basically anything without an invul. That's 225pts or something like that so you'd have to spare 5 Gaunts.
Your alternative IMO is to grab a Maleceptor, swap out the 30 Gaunts for 3 TG, then find the points to upgrade GS with plates. There is some legitimately huge value to be had here, with a single unit potentially soaking 2 Assault Cent shooting and 1 combat phase. Even more with Jorm and Dynamic Camouflage. This let's the base GS Sling hang onto and even counter current builds, unless they ignore cover. TG form your 1st engineer squad, Rippers the 2nd, you save space to hide, and protect SL T1 to give him some aggro distance.
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Post by bigpig on Jan 13, 2020 8:53:35 GMT
Few thoughts in mind: - I don't know what the Aeldari counter marine meta is. I've looked at Fliers and tbh those don't really cut it, I may have won my marine matchup with a WK but it doesn't mean I couldn't have lost hard - he screwed up on target priority and DS decisions. Not to mention theres the IH All Fliers list that also counters other Fliers. If anything, I expect this faction list to be high invul focused to tank the marine alphastrike and hit back, since marines don't handle Invuls that well. One I've been seeing is a trapdoor spider concept. Craftwold detachment with 3 Nightspinners and 9 shadoweaver platforms, all master artisans. 6d6 S7 D2 shots and 9d6 S6 D1 shots all no LoS and ignore cover with standard reroll 1s etc around them. DE detachment with 3 7ish strong units of Grotesques to take the middle and prevent you from getting to the artillery. All support units as well. A few more pieces thrown in for good measure and shenanigans. It murders MSU marines that like to hide in cover and has the punch to say come get me. I do agree that IH flyers counter the flyer list heard, but I"m still seeing that eldar flyer list out there a lot. Tau I'm not concerned about as long as I can set up charges from out of LoS (which is easier because charge drones first) or have the lictor help. If terrain doesn't work then...... A shooty MC list wouldn't work against them either. Orks are a skew list that becomes a toss up depending on play of the ork player and dice imo. I just got my 4 extra Carnifex's in the mail today (ordered over a month ago when first considering MC spam) so despite a desire to consider it... I don't think I can pull it off in time. The Mal, really does interest me. I've considered the armor for the stealers since seeing some of the adaptations. I think it has play and I can get the points. Current playtesting is to add the exocrine in pod for forward threat projection and killy, armor on one stealer squad |
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Post by No One on Jan 13, 2020 8:55:59 GMT
and an oversized unit of (wait for it....) rippers. I dunno how much you get from making it that oversized: while going oversized works to prevent chip damage, my concern is that you've got too many to easily fit out of LoS, at which point...well, you've probably got enough to die out of LoS, which is fine as long as you're in Synapse I guess? I dunno, not sure you get enough from going all the way to 7 bases, rather than, say 5 (which survives double tap TFC with a decent amount of leeway, even without -1). - I don't know what the Aeldari counter marine meta is. I've looked at Fliers and tbh those don't really cut it, I may have won my marine matchup with a WK but it doesn't mean I couldn't have lost hard - he screwed up on target priority and DS decisions. Not to mention theres the IH All Fliers list that also counters other Fliers. If anything, I expect this faction list to be high invul focused to tank the marine alphastrike and hit back, since marines don't handle Invuls that well. From what discussion on this I've heard: 3 fliers, because they're still killy and 3 night spinners to handle TFC/be really solid primaris killers. Basically both able to pick out a key target and kill it with mobility or ignore LoS. Then other stuff to take advantage of that e.g. dark reapers in a wave serpent T1, then fire and fade once ignore LoS threats are gone. Or something along those lines. Then other stuff/scoring etc as needed. The other build is around 2++ shining spears/durable warlock council, but I don't really know anything about those. I'd expect Chaos to make a pretty decent: they might not necessarily be good marine counters, but with the faith and fury stuff and CA pts drops, there's a lot of potentially strong stuff that I think people will be trying out. They mightn't be good enough to make top tables, but we're not looking at top table meta here. |
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Post by bigpig on Jan 13, 2020 9:03:13 GMT
and an oversized unit of (wait for it....) rippers. I dunno how much you get from making it that oversized: while going oversized works to prevent chip damage, my concern is that you've got too many to easily fit out of LoS, at which point...well, you've probably got enough to die out of LoS, which is fine as long as you're in Synapse I guess? I dunno, not sure you get enough from going all the way to 7 bases, rather than, say 5 (which survives double tap TFC with a decent amount of leeway, even without -1). - I don't know what the Aeldari counter marine meta is. I've looked at Fliers and tbh those don't really cut it, I may have won my marine matchup with a WK but it doesn't mean I couldn't have lost hard - he screwed up on target priority and DS decisions. Not to mention theres the IH All Fliers list that also counters other Fliers. If anything, I expect this faction list to be high invul focused to tank the marine alphastrike and hit back, since marines don't handle Invuls that well. From what discussion on this I've heard: 3 fliers, because they're still killy and 3 night spinners to handle TFC/be really solid primaris killers. Basically both able to pick out a key target and kill it with mobility or ignore LoS. Then other stuff to take advantage of that e.g. dark reapers in a wave serpent T1, then fire and fade once ignore LoS threats are gone. Or something along those lines. Then other stuff/scoring etc as needed. The other build is around 2++ shining spears/durable warlock council, but I don't really know anything about those. I'd expect Chaos to make a pretty decent: they might not necessarily be good marine counters, but with the faith and fury stuff and CA pts drops, there's a lot of potentially strong stuff that I think people will be trying out. They mightn't be good enough to make top tables, but we're not looking at top table meta here. I'm thinking five or six is the sweet spot. I've played it at nine and it was too big. It does need to be large enough to prevent chip damage and make firing TFCs at it unpalatable because it is about having enough to die out of LoS (in synapse) in order to get Engineers. Against a huge firepower no LoS army, just take a different secondary. Yes on the warlock council too. I have to admit to not playing against it yet. Just theory crafting that one. It's old school deathstar approach with support, much like possessed bomb |
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Post by wormlord666 on Jan 13, 2020 9:46:58 GMT
The maleceptor is a good option. I just notice that in many games I run into CP problems and don’t use him anyway but the spells and the tankieness can provide some use anyway and I even managed to pull his mortal wounds thing off a few times.
A mawloc and a dakkaflyrant can really come in handy against those lone characters in the backfield.
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Post by kazetanade on Jan 13, 2020 10:39:09 GMT
A Mawloc is a trap. Next to no support character is 3W so no matter what you're not finishing the job with a Mawloc. It's better with a Sniper, which pure Nids don't have hence I wouldn't bother.
For Tau its theoretically good but the 2" limitation on its base basically means just Drones, who have a 5+++ to tank it. I love Mawlocs, but if their ability doesn't go to 6" MW, they are going to be pretty bad.
I love the Warlock star. D6 MW always, 36 + 9 mega wound shots, then 18 mega wound melee attacks, while being -2 to hit, 3++, 5+++, 3W...
Other thoughts to come later - I'm going for some DS Behemoth test game to see what these Genestealers can do.
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Post by No One on Jan 13, 2020 10:55:53 GMT
A Mawloc is a trap. Next to no support character is 3W so no matter what you're not finishing the job with a Mawloc. It's better with a Sniper, which pure Nids don't have hence I wouldn't bother. It sort of works against low wound count units that are otherwise difficult to get to, or get high value from a couple of wounds. But about all I can think of for that are TFC (finish off with biovores) and maybe stuff like eliminators/dark reapers. Otherwise...it's an OK amount of MW, but those require other units to get value from and are less helpful because they're spread out. |
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. I'm really shooting for 3-3 or 4-2 to try and keep a hold on my BIF ranking. FLG still has hundreds of magic boxes and other ruins that will be on the other 350-400 tables.