|
|
Post by gigasnail on Jan 2, 2020 6:53:28 GMT
fellas. no one means literally you can put whatever trash on the board you want and do fine in a pickup game. there are absolute garbage units, things that simply don't work together, and approaches that don't work well without certain conditions you may not be in control of (i.e. melee without adequate terrain vs. even a casual current shooting army). they mean you can put together a list that isn't pants on head stupid but still has some cooler if less optimal units, play the mission, and win some games or at least be in the running to win without being brutalized when faced with other casual players that aren't trying to (please do not swear) club baby seals. for the new friends that are just starting out, you're going to have problems when you're new to the hobby and have very limited options. especially when you make purchases via rule of cool. there's no way around it, it's the nature of the hobby. people in this boat have my sympathy, there's no way i'd have been able to afford to play this game when i was in my 20's, this hobby is expensive and eats up time and money. but there's not a lot to be done for them aside to advise them to look stuff up and have a plan before they go buy a bunch of toxicrenes because they look cool. tell your friends to look for an escalation league while they build their collections up. check ebay and auctions and 2nd hand shops. if your beer and pretzels list is getting seriously thrashed by other casual players and lists, consistently, and you're not making actual bad decisions in list making vs. just running a more fluffy list, that's kind of a sign your local meta might be stiffer than you give it credit for, and you may want to adjust your beer and pretzel to actual meat ratio. your friends may also not really be running as casual of lists as you think. at this point, it could also be a symptom of a space marine centric meta. multiple free stacked buffs mean even casual lists are packing a whollup. if this is your situation, again i'd advise you to add some more meat to your stew because if you don't, you're going to have a bad time. people don't generally play games to have a bad time. if you were running toxicrenes and haruspexes and tervigons and winning, your meta sounds pretty soft, but even casual space marine lists are likely to be edging more casual tyranid lists out even if they're not running double or triple TFC (or whatever. they have a lot of toys to choose from). might be time to saddle up, and roll with more focused lists. up to y'all though, you know what's fun for you. personally i'm not a fan of being (please do not swear) brutalized. that's not fun to me. you're making it sound like that's what's happening to you. side note: No one is deluding themselves that the Maleceptor Encephalic Diffusion meta is upon us and about to sweep the LVO. That doesn't mean there's not value to be had in digging into some of the fringe "benchwarmer" strategies to be played around it. no, we've had people saying nearly exactly that. i'm not saying it's useless (it's not) but it's expensive and clunky and the maleceptor/malanthrope bubble is going to be very, very dependent on what your table looks like. i think it's a very solid choice for casual play but there's no way it's first string. there's plenty of value in having the discussion, YES. there's less value in having to rehash it twenty times and have five pages of derails. y'all making me write novels over here. sheesh. i already regret writing this because it's going to be another five page derail incoming. |
|
|
|
Post by naviedzony on Jan 2, 2020 10:51:43 GMT
Gigasnail is right. It's not that there is some "beer and pretzel comp" to determine how not-competitively some roster is created. If you bring fun and fluffy list and it get's steamrolled, then maybe - just maybe - your opponent brought not-so-much-beer-and-pretzel list? Or maybe he is a really good player and does his best even with suboptimal choices? Or maybe his army is a good counter for Tyranids (as Tau or Deathwatch). There is so many variables, that it's really hard to blame just one factor - namely suboptimal Tyranid units just being bad at "beer and pretzel" level.
|
|
|
|
Post by bigpig on Jan 2, 2020 11:12:21 GMT
Here is my take on this thread divergence; Unless there is a social contract in place which limits what you can take, such as "in this narrative scenario the nid army has blah blah and blah and the imperium is comprised of X Y and Z"..... or, "I'm going to intentionally take a weaker list because of the skill level/model choice of my adversary", the players will typically take what gives them the best chance of success. That is true "fluff" based gaming. It is a mutually decided upon way to play. Now, at times a player will, in fact, take a gimp list because they really luv the fluff of a certain concept, but even then they will typically try to tune it as best they can within the framework of the fluff idea. This is the exception. Beyond this, players rarely go into a game.... "pickup" otherwise bringing a (please do not swear) chance to win. It is inherent human nature to want to triumph in the game This whole competitive vs fluffy argument tends to fall flat with me as half the people who say they are playing fluff games are actually trying their damn hardest two win, but are hobbled by lack of skill and model choice. If a players is not skilled but is doing their hardest to bring the toughest list possible without a scenario framework or guidelines then they are playing competitive, not fluffy... they just aren't good at it. Too often people rail against "tournaments" and "competitive" players.... then turn around and bring some netlist or hard as possible combination to a "fun pickup game." My last example of this was a player who brought an Iron Hands list to a 1500pt fun event comprised of Repulsor Executioner, 2 Relic Leviathans, Eliminators, 2 TFCs, and other IH bs and then complained about OP lists took him down when he lost because of OP lists  It is all perspective |
|
|
|
Post by Rahab on Jan 2, 2020 12:11:08 GMT
I'd love to continue this discussion without feeling like I am causing problems. Is it possible for a mod to move this divergence to its own thread?
|
|
|
|
Post by dranzyl on Jan 2, 2020 12:24:45 GMT
On the blood angels/tyranid friends maybe ask them if they want to switch armies for a couple of games (if they play almost exclusively with each other its an effective way to counter the onesidedness).
|
|
|
|
Post by N.I.B. on Jan 2, 2020 14:31:06 GMT
I have two friends who are very new to the game, have kids and limited money. They pretty much exclusively play against each other. I've watched a few games and they're both limited on what models they can bring. The nid player is more or less stuck with a genestealer list without any hiveguard. he's got a tfex and that's pretty much it. They've been playing for a year and a bit now and its a couple times a month and the nid player is so frustrated that he's already starting to dabble into eldar. 'stuck with a genestealer list without any hiveguard' and 'starting to invest in another faction' doesn't really compute for me. Apparently money and time isn't a problem then. I'd suggest he proxy a few games with a competitive list to see if he like it, before jumping ship. |
|
|
|
Post by No One on Jan 2, 2020 14:59:03 GMT
i already regret writing this because it's going to be another five page derail incoming. I'd love to continue this discussion without feeling like I am causing problems. Is it possible for a mod to move this divergence to its own thread? Made a new thread ( link) so we can stop derailing this. On the topic: I think 'ceptor could be decent in a mix of mid sized infantry and MCs (or vehicles if it works with GSC...ha). But it doesn't seem like it does enough for the big stuff when you consider the restrictions and the opportunity cost (outside of massed bolter fire, would it really be better than an extra MC and 2 CP rerolls on e.g. flyrant 4++?) And for gaunt carpet, it's just giving a big target for the anti-tank weaponry that could've instead just been more gaunts. |
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Jan 2, 2020 15:16:59 GMT
On the topic: I think 'ceptor could be decent in a mix of mid sized infantry and MCs (or vehicles if it works with GSC...ha). But it doesn't seem like it does enough for the big stuff when you consider the restrictions and the opportunity cost (outside of massed bolter fire, would it really be better than an extra MC and 2 CP rerolls on e.g. flyrant 4++?) And for gaunt carpet, it's just giving a big target for the anti-tank weaponry that could've instead just been more gaunts. This exactly has been my assertion since my first post. I still waiting for someone to share how they have found a different experience to make it work. Part of the problem is non of MCs can typically find suitable terrain to hide behind. Anti-tank weaponry just takes them down too fast. Plus, as you noted, it's 2 CP and most lists that could use this a defensive basis are CP starved as it is. |
|
|
|
Post by infornography on Jan 2, 2020 18:35:28 GMT
I think the cepter strat can work well in a list tuned to use it but only if that list can operate without it. Between CP cost and lynchpin status of the cepter, if your list can't stand without it, you are probably going to lose more often than not, and I don't see two cepters being worth the investment.
I do think we will see this in some top tables at tournies but not all the high ranking nids will likely have it. It is good, but not amazing, which says to me that they actually did a decent job of balancing it. If only they took such care with the Space Marine releases of late. Or maybe they just got lucky this time ;-)
|
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jan 2, 2020 20:02:30 GMT
New thoughts on the matter:
The units that benefit the most from the Maleceptor are:
T4 - Making Lasguns, Bolters, Heavy Bolters, and Melta/Reaper/Cyclic/Pulse or Bright Lance weapons less effective. Genestealers benefit immensely on the first 3, and Warriors benefit immensely on both.
T8 - Making Heavy Bolters, and almost every standard anti-tank worse. Executioners, and Eldar D-options barring WK are the only notable exceptions I can think of, leaving only melee left to be the usable answer.
That is really suggesting a large Jormungandr base of Warriors and 3 TFexes, maybe 1-2 Exocrenes. You drop the TFexes out in front of a ruin to vision block, then drop 3 Venomthropes and the Maleceptor behind them. You can tank a huge amount of damage T1 (when things are wounding on a 6+ it's almost negligible, and 5+ doesnt hurt too much). While venomthropes are a no brainer option to kill, the Maleceptor really begs the question if you should kill it, because it's not easy to kill and it's tanky with its 4++ - with 3 RuptureFexes looking their way, they're highly likely going to prioritize the Fexes, meaning the Maleceptor can be out in the open too (it's just a question of do you want him to have the -1 to hit too or not).
So if I am thinking this right, a Redemptor (?) Dreadnought with 4 Lascannon shots will hit 3, wound 2, possibly only 1 goes through, for max 6 damage which doesnt even half the Fex. Maybe you fail both, for max 12D which kills an Exocrene but a TFex is still standing. That's a good trade to me, and it's not like you can actually bring another TFex anyway since you already have 3.
Assuming the worst case - Aeldari Fliers with Pulse/Lance, you're taking 4 shots, let's say they're the new hotness so Master Artisan for 4 hits, then 2 wounds, maybe 3. You get a 6+save because ignore cover, so let's say the split is 2 Bright and 1 Pulse, for a max of 15 damage (so everything does die), but it's likely to be 10 damage (2d6 + 3) so even an Exo is still alive. If it's Alaitoc they're gonna cop worse results since no reroll hits and wounds.
The problem I find is, does the TFex manages to credit itself as a worthwhile shooter to merit this kind of list building focus? Even back in Index days, the Exocrene was the far superior shooter if not for range problems forcing it to move, and the recent points change doesnt impact that much.
Too bad it isnt -1 to wound, that would put it firmly in 2CP expenditure territory and would skyrocket the Maleceptor's value a tonne. But to be fair most of those strategems are target single unit, this is a frickin aura, so... I think its an acceptable trade off. It's better than the Eldar 2cp for reroll 1s to wound aura...
Question would be, do you really want to play a gunline, because in standard map builds its precisely this type of castle gunlines that face issues in really being consistent winners. But if we're looking casual or EW, I think we've stumbled on some gold here.
|
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on Jan 2, 2020 20:09:20 GMT
if it was blanket to wound, we wouldn't be having this conversation because that'd be good and useful pretty much universally.
it's not.
|
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jan 2, 2020 20:12:50 GMT
if it was blanket to wound, we wouldn't be having this conversation because that'd be good and useful pretty much universally. it's not. How about answering the rest of the questions, which have more meat in them? We all know it's not a blanket to wound and we all wished it was. |
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on Jan 2, 2020 20:26:37 GMT
sorry, i didn't catch that last line. nids have never been good at any sort of a static gunline. we're not good at it now, we're just not trash at it like we used to be. we lack both the volume of fire and durability needed.
it's probably fine for casual games, to a point/depending on what your meta is.
|
|
|
|
Post by mule on Jan 2, 2020 20:52:17 GMT
I have two friends who are very new to the game, have kids and limited money. They pretty much exclusively play against each other. I've watched a few games and they're both limited on what models they can bring. The nid player is more or less stuck with a genestealer list without any hiveguard. he's got a tfex and that's pretty much it. They've been playing for a year and a bit now and its a couple times a month and the nid player is so frustrated that he's already starting to dabble into eldar. 'stuck with a genestealer list without any hiveguard' and 'starting to invest in another faction' doesn't really compute for me. Apparently money and time isn't a problem then. I'd suggest he proxy a few games with a competitive list to see if he like it, before jumping ship. Haha I've lent him my hiveguard for a few weeks. He knows he needs them but i mean its not like theyre going to outright fix his games. Like i said i cant fault him for stopping spending money on nids. I want to play with warriors and another exo but im having a hard time justifying buying another 9 warriors and another pod. |
|
|
|
Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Jan 2, 2020 21:19:22 GMT
Kaze, I tried running jorm tyranofex and it can work with the major caveat of having to get about three turns of shooting in. I think I works well in maelstrom/EW, but not as well in itc as you will just give up too many points for big game, etc. I'll give a 1.5k list a try, but it's going to be about 1 months before I can due to personal stuff going on.
|
|
