Swarmlord

[kazetanade]

Tyrants with 8A, SL with 10A. Fexes with a super ramming charge that blows through people, maintaining 4A.

Haruspex should have 12d3A with each hit generating another hit, Toxi should have 8A, every wound causes d3 mortals.

*shrug* at what point does it get ridiculous?

I am of the agreement that MCs need better fantasy fulfillment. The question is how much and in what way, and how do you maintain balance?

[Synaptic Scourge]

Maintain is not really a word I would associate with balance in 40k. It's always been a mess in varying degrees.

[mattblowers]

Jan 7, 2020 11:18:46 GMT kazetanade said:

I am of the agreement that MCs need better fantasy fulfillment. The question is how much and in what way, and how do you maintain balance?

Can you ever think of a time when our MCs were out of balance in a way that tipped in our favor? I don't think we need to worry about them becoming OP.

[purestrain]

Jan 7, 2020 12:23:37 GMT mattblowers said:

Jan 7, 2020 11:18:46 GMT kazetanade said:

I am of the agreement that MCs need better fantasy fulfillment. The question is how much and in what way, and how do you maintain balance?

Can you ever think of a time when our MCs were out of balance in a way that tipped in our favor? I don't think we need to worry about them becoming OP.

Slap GMC Tyrgons rules onto 8ths MC Trygon Prime, theres a really good killer right there.

[mattblowers]

Jan 7, 2020 12:40:56 GMT purestrain said:

Jan 7, 2020 12:23:37 GMT mattblowers said:

Can you ever think of a time when our MCs were out of balance in a way that tipped in our favor? I don't think we need to worry about them becoming OP.

Slap GMC Tyrgons rules onto 8ths MC Trygon Prime, theres a really good killer right there.

Unless you give them a stomp equivalent for CC, you actually wouldn't gain anything you can't get from Kraken unless the whole stat line is improved.

This also exactly illustrates my point. For years we wanted plastic versions of FW units. GW gives them to us but with nerfed rules.

Nid players: "We want cookies! we want cookies!"

GW: "Here you go!"

Nid players: "These taste terrible."

GW: "We thought it might rot your teeth so we replaced sugar with salt. But you still got what you asked for."

Internet: "Shut up 'nids! You got a cookie, you guys complain about everything."

Nid players: "Here try one."

Internet and GW: "No thanks we just ate. But YOU should love them."

[dranzyl]

Franly speaking a mellee tyrant with 8 attacks is what i would consider a big step in the right direction.

[mule]

Jan 7, 2020 11:18:46 GMT kazetanade said:

Tyrants with 8A, SL with 10A. Fexes with a super ramming charge that blows through people, maintaining 4A.

Haruspex should have 12d3A with each hit generating another hit, Toxi should have 8A, every wound causes d3 mortals.

*shrug* at what point does it get ridiculous?

I am of the agreement that MCs need better fantasy fulfillment. The question is how much and in what way, and how do you maintain balance?

I'm of the opinion that if our units get into melee they should be able to make up double their points back. Specially since we don't have any meaningful invulns. Either that or our creatures toughness should be a lot higher. Baseline 8 minimum on our MC's going up to 10 with no invulns.

[kazetanade]

Jan 7, 2020 12:23:37 GMT mattblowers said:

Jan 7, 2020 11:18:46 GMT kazetanade said:

I am of the agreement that MCs need better fantasy fulfillment. The question is how much and in what way, and how do you maintain balance?

Can you ever think of a time when our MCs were out of balance in a way that tipped in our favor? I don't think we need to worry about them becoming OP.

3rd Ed Carnifexen with 10W, if my understanding is correct. I joined in 7th where our only usable MC were Mawlocs, Carnifexen and Flyrants.

Personally, I felt like our MCs were designed to work with AOS styled damage pass through - if you were to consider that, then the stats and abilities they each have mostly make sense. The giant lictor in particular - why the hell do we need a D6 against infantry?

I know we talk allot about how delivery is a problem - that's a melee problem in general. But if we could fix the delivery, then once we implement this type of damage system in I think Nids melee would be much more respectable.

That should be a strictly Nids thing though - I just don't understand how does a tentacle monstrosity have less attacks than a human with 2 hands and a sword.

[mule]

Jan 7, 2020 23:42:02 GMT kazetanade said:

Jan 7, 2020 12:23:37 GMT mattblowers said:

Can you ever think of a time when our MCs were out of balance in a way that tipped in our favor? I don't think we need to worry about them becoming OP.

3rd Ed Carnifexen with 10W, if my understanding is correct. I joined in 7th where our only usable MC were Mawlocs, Carnifexen and Flyrants.

Personally, I felt like our MCs were designed to work with AOS styled damage pass through - if you were to consider that, then the stats and abilities they each have mostly make sense. The giant lictor in particular - why the hell do we need a D6 against infantry?

I know we talk allot about how delivery is a problem - that's a melee problem in general. But if we could fix the delivery, then once we implement this type of damage system in I think Nids melee would be much more respectable.

That should be a strictly Nids thing though - I just don't understand how does a tentacle monstrosity have less attacks than a human with 2 hands and a sword.

Lictors are supposed to be our version of snipers, until they nerfed the stratagems by changing the wording. Lictors should be able to come in within 3" but outside of 1" and make a charge. 

[kazetanade]

The giant lictor is the FW monster we have that leaps, the Dimachareon.

I have no comments about the lictor, at least the latest strategem is a step in the right direction.

[mule]

Jan 7, 2020 23:57:32 GMT kazetanade said:

The giant lictor is the FW monster we have that leaps, the Dimachareon.

I have no comments about the lictor, at least the latest strategem is a step in the right direction.

oh sorry i accidently didnt catch the giant portion. ^^;;

[drrickmarshall]

Jan 7, 2020 11:18:46 GMT kazetanade said:

Tyrants with 8A, SL with 10A. Fexes with a super ramming charge that blows through people, maintaining 4A.

Haruspex should have 12d3A with each hit generating another hit, Toxi should have 8A, every wound causes d3 mortals.

*shrug* at what point does it get ridiculous?

I am of the agreement that MCs need better fantasy fulfillment. The question is how much and in what way, and how do you maintain balance?

those numbers sound about right to me, all i know is tyrtnats , haruspex, toxicrene, are garbagio in close combat, and for their points its absolutely insane how much less effiecient they are at doing solid work. also the fact that they are all hitting on 3-4 at best, its unfortunate especially because i love all the monsterous creature models so much. its too bad were kinda forced to take hive gaurd exo and stealers and thats it as far as competitive nids goes, and even that still gets wrecked by most armies in the meta these days, not trying to complain to much because i love 40k and nids alot, just wish all the armies were a little more balanced.

[mule]

Jan 8, 2020 2:28:41 GMT drrickmarshall said:

Jan 7, 2020 11:18:46 GMT kazetanade said:

Tyrants with 8A, SL with 10A. Fexes with a super ramming charge that blows through people, maintaining 4A.

Haruspex should have 12d3A with each hit generating another hit, Toxi should have 8A, every wound causes d3 mortals.

*shrug* at what point does it get ridiculous?

I am of the agreement that MCs need better fantasy fulfillment. The question is how much and in what way, and how do you maintain balance?

those numbers sound about right to me, all i know is tyrtnats , haruspex, toxicrene, are garbagio in close combat, and for their points its absolutely insane how much less effiecient they are at doing solid work. also the fact that they are all hitting on 3-4 at best, its unfortunate especially because i love all the monsterous creature models so much. its too bad were kinda forced to take hive gaurd exo and stealers and thats it as far as competitive nids goes, and even that still gets wrecked by most armies in the meta these days, not trying to complain to much because i love 40k and nids alot, just wish all the armies were a little more balanced.

Tyrants are in a fine spot imo. Maybe overcosted by 20 ish points. Bringing them back to where they were before would probably be acceptable but they're actually pretty decent. Being able to double smite shoot and have rending claws with toxin sacs puts them in a decent spot being able to do all 3 phases quite adequately. The main issue is that they're squishy and have a big profile so providing LOS blocking to them anywhere is just unlikely.

[No One]

You would be correct in that. Except that psychic scaling is terrible and we get oodles of powers with our HQs. So in essence, only 1 can double smite, and the rest might even struggle to single smite. And with T7 4++ they're not that squishy in absolute terms, just not exactly tanky for the pts (and are essentially unhideable).

But compare any of our melee options to, say, dreads: you can get a shooty/hitty dread with 4 attacks base, with better shooting and better cc, for similar/less. Less mobile than a flyrant, but more than a walkrant/fex.

They don't need more attacks to be good, but when marines/chaos gets extra attacks just 'cause and most things have same/more attacks anyway, 4 attacks stings.

[drrickmarshall]

Jan 8, 2020 2:44:14 GMT mule said:

Jan 8, 2020 2:28:41 GMT drrickmarshall said:

those numbers sound about right to me, all i know is tyrtnats , haruspex, toxicrene, are garbagio in close combat, and for their points its absolutely insane how much less effiecient they are at doing solid work. also the fact that they are all hitting on 3-4 at best, its unfortunate especially because i love all the monsterous creature models so much. its too bad were kinda forced to take hive gaurd exo and stealers and thats it as far as competitive nids goes, and even that still gets wrecked by most armies in the meta these days, not trying to complain to much because i love 40k and nids alot, just wish all the armies were a little more balanced.

Tyrants are in a fine spot imo. Maybe overcosted by 20 ish points. Bringing them back to where they were before would probably be acceptable but they're actually pretty decent. Being able to double smite shoot and have rending claws with toxin sacs puts them in a decent spot being able to do all 3 phases quite adequately. The main issue is that they're squishy and have a big profile so providing LOS blocking to them anywhere is just unlikely.

i just feel that our alpha leader beast should have a couple more attacks, also your right they are very squishy all it takes is a few lascannon shots to bring one down, in contrast a demon prince with talons cost less is a 9 wound character, and has 8 attacks, sure no shooting but hes also psychic.