|
Post by gigasnail on Jan 3, 2020 17:39:31 GMT
If it let them shoot back when they die, that'd be awesome.
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Jan 3, 2020 19:49:07 GMT
If it let them shoot back when they die, that'd be awesome. You say that but it still hasn't been enough to give cause to bring Ancients in SM armies except for the hellblaster lists people used to run.
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on Jan 3, 2020 20:15:49 GMT
That's not really a good comparison. The banner dude is a tax unit with a limited range. This would be organic to the unit.
There's a strat that let's you do this with noise marines (might just be slanesh marked units and not noise marine specific) and it's pretty widely used.
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jan 4, 2020 7:01:29 GMT
Strat is also guaranteed, Ancient is a 4+.
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Jan 4, 2020 11:57:20 GMT
That's not really a good comparison. The banner dude is a tax unit with a limited range. This would be organic to the unit. There's a strat that let's you do this with noise marines (might just be slanesh marked units and not noise marine specific) and it's pretty widely used. Fair enough. But 4+ (3+ with relic) or automatic neither has been good enough to make the ancient or noise marines see wide use. I still think my point is valid: it’s not the magic sauce your looking for. Lash whips are pretty decent as is for the price. Problem is that it’s like many things tyranids: cool concept just doesn’t really work well enough in game.
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on Jan 4, 2020 17:54:02 GMT
I'm not looking for a magic sauce. Warrior's shooting output is eh without a prime (and it's not really exciting even with a prime), but getting to actually use them even if they get vaporized sure wouldn't hurt my feelings towards the unit.
You dont see noise marines as much as you might because they cost too much and die too easily, and dropped slanesh marked terminators or oblits do their job better.
|
|
|
Post by mule on Jan 4, 2020 18:15:11 GMT
But will a whole unit get vaporized? That's the question really. Like you're talking about 3x9 wounds. The question is, in melee will 1/2 of the unit die before you get to attack back on their turn and then again first on your turn?
Unless you're getting multi charged I think it's not that easy to clear off 4 warriors with 3 wounds each in a single combat. Cause right after that if your unit is equipped with boneswords only, you could interrupt pile in and swing with extra attacks. I think it depends on what or who you're fighting.
I just assumed aggressors. A unit of 3 can kill 7 warriors if they roll perfectly hits + wounds + damage. Chance of hitting is .50 chance to wound is .83 no save because -3 and d3 wounds which is .333~ which turns out to be 13.8% for each aggressor attack to outright kill a warrior. Combined a unit of 3 Aggressors would have 7 attacks. 4 of those hit, which is 3 wounds, odds are 1 damage 2 damage and 3 damage results meaning either 1-2 of your warriors die per fight phase.
I don't think it's worth taking them because your 7-8 remaining warriors would be able to put a decent amount of damage back into the aggressor unit.
Buffed by a Prime your remaining 7 warriors is ws3+1 so 2+ .83 to hit, T5 S4 so 5+ to wound and a 5+ save. 7x4 (boneswords) = 28 attacks * .83 * .3333 * .6666 = 5.16 damage back which is a 1.5 dead aggressors. If you take lashwhips you get 6 extra attacks from the 2 previous dead not 7 that your boneswords would give you.
So it only makes sense if you're getting multicharged and your unit is going to get whiped and not able to swing back. Even then you'll be able to select them again in your fight phase first so each bonesword is 2 extra attacks not a single one where LSBS is just 3 attacks 1x for the whole game.
I don't think it's worth it. Aggressors and Cents should be getting shot off the board before they make it to you, we lose toe to toe in melee vs them. Ravenguard are bad for us cause they can just deepstrike infantry 9 inches away.
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on Jan 4, 2020 18:58:16 GMT
I mean, ideally you'd shoot them off the board before they were a threat, or zone them out with chaff. How's that work out for everyone? Have to see how the PA buffs work out, see if they can pull us out of this 30% win rate range.
I was talking about warriors getting to shoot if they get smoked either via strat or wargear, its wishlisting and largely immaterial.
I dont think they really do great against hard melee targets, regardless of configuration. They're ok.
|
|
|
Post by N.I.B. on Jan 4, 2020 21:55:56 GMT
I've played against Wulfen and double fighting Posessed, where Lashwhips rule the day. Stops Pile In and Consolidate moves in their tracks, so that my shooty units can stay out of combat and punish the cc specialists. That's the strength of whips. I don't think the single extra attacks are worth losing that ability, if you have a gunline to protect. If you don't, I'd go with Boneswords.
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jan 4, 2020 22:34:40 GMT
mule the Cents we're really scared of can't be shot off the table before we fight them - ie Outflanking ones in WS and Deepstriking ones in RG. They can both roll in with a 7" rerollable/3d6discard, which is pretty reliable at like 86% or something like that (but not guaranteed, as any GSC player knows). A unit of 6 will output 25A at S10, 3+ to hit, and possibly a reroll to hit. They each do ap-4 3D, meaning at base, that unit will kill 14 warriors in one combat. This unit costs almost the same as our warriors. Add 60pts for 6 x rapid6 Bolters that always rapid-fire. Assuming this is the type of unit you're going to face, then yes LWBS is way better, as you aren't going to get a combat phase otherwise. But Warriors into this unit is so bad. 9x4 (assume all Boneswords) 36, 2+ to hit so 30 hits, 5+ to wound so 10 wounds, ap-2 so 5 failed saves, only 1 guy dies. Might as well take ScyTals and hope they never hit combat, you save 18pts this way.
|
|
|
Post by mule on Jan 4, 2020 22:52:46 GMT
mule the Cents we're really scared of can't be shot off the table before we fight them - ie Outflanking ones in WS and Deepstriking ones in RG. They can both roll in with a 7" rerollable/3d6discard, which is pretty reliable at like 86% or something like that (but not guaranteed, as any GSC player knows). A unit of 6 will output 25A at S10, 3+ to hit, and possibly a reroll to hit. They each do ap-4 3D, meaning at base, that unit will kill 14 warriors in one combat. This unit costs almost the same as our warriors. Add 60pts for 6 x rapid6 Bolters that always rapid-fire. Assuming this is the type of unit you're going to face, then yes LWBS is way better, as you aren't going to get a combat phase otherwise. But Warriors into this unit is so bad. 9x4 (assume all Boneswords) 36, 2+ to hit so 30 hits, 5+ to wound so 10 wounds, ap-2 so 5 failed saves, only 1 guy dies. Might as well take ScyTals and hope they never hit combat, you save 18pts this way. "Ravenguard are bad for us cause they can just deepstrike infantry 9 inches away." Last sentence. I agree about not taking boneswords though. Only reason why I might is because of other armies. Like da boyz.
|
|
|
Post by No One on Jan 5, 2020 2:06:19 GMT
"Ravenguard are bad for us cause they can just deepstrike infantry 9 inches away." Last sentence. I agree about not taking boneswords though. Only reason why I might is because of other armies. Like da boyz. Well, you're either going to see those, or Fist/IH, which can survivability buff them and probably not max units because they don't have the delivery. Boneswords are pretty bad against boyz. Where they're good against is good armour with decent toughness i.e. stuff like intercessors, where it bumps you from 3.5 to 8 for a unit of 9. The extra attack isn't really worth 2 pts: you reroll 1s, so you essentially have only 0.5 extra attacks over scy tals. I've played against Wulfen and double fighting Posessed, where Lashwhips rule the day. Stops Pile In and Consolidate moves in their tracks, so that my shooty units can stay out of combat and punish the cc specialists. That's the strength of whips. I don't think the single extra attacks are worth losing that ability, if you have a gunline to protect. If you don't, I'd go with Boneswords. Just take one as a tech option.
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Jan 5, 2020 19:47:08 GMT
mule the Cents we're really scared of can't be shot off the table before we fight them - ie Outflanking ones in WS and Deepstriking ones in RG. They can both roll in with a 7" rerollable/3d6discard, which is pretty reliable at like 86% or something like that (but not guaranteed, as any GSC player knows). A unit of 6 will output 25A at S10, 3+ to hit, and possibly a reroll to hit. They each do ap-4 3D, meaning at base, that unit will kill 14 warriors in one combat. This unit costs almost the same as our warriors. Add 60pts for 6 x rapid6 Bolters that always rapid-fire. Assuming this is the type of unit you're going to face, then yes LWBS is way better, as you aren't going to get a combat phase otherwise. But Warriors into this unit is so bad. 9x4 (assume all Boneswords) 36, 2+ to hit so 30 hits, 5+ to wound so 10 wounds, ap-2 so 5 failed saves, only 1 guy dies. Might as well take ScyTals and hope they never hit combat, you save 18pts this way. "Ravenguard are bad for us cause they can just deepstrike infantry 9 inches away." Last sentence. I agree about not taking boneswords though. Only reason why I might is because of other armies. Like da boyz. My bad, I didnt see the last sentence. I have issues about the IF Cents, although maybe from misunderstanding. I get the impression they can be really tanky walking up the board - something like always in cover, +1 to cover, ignore -1ap, +1 to save. Of course Cents dont care about ignore -1ap when in cover, but having a +3 to save while 2+ base sounds pretty disgusting. How likely to create I dont really know, but the sound of it ticks me off as is. I havent encountered IF before so I dont really know but that's what I got from a brief reading - IF dont really have a good slew of strategems other than Bolter Explode that I really noted, so they're mostly in it for the Ignore Cover and Bolter Explode base. ...Wait. Does that mean they can get a Tesla effect on 6s, where 1 unmod 6 is 3 hits? Jesus, that's one hell of a one trick pony... I wouldnt be surprised to see WS and IF in the same army now. Both of their super doctrines dont look great, at least compared to IH and RG. Jesus the thought of it is giving me some nightmares - Walking Bolter Cents with +3 to armor, then Outflanking Bolter Cents with 7" 3D6 charges. That's so ridiculously overbearing. Thank god no one in my meta owns that many Assault Centurions, and we're all too broke to buy them.
|
|
|
Post by mule on Jan 5, 2020 22:53:39 GMT
"Ravenguard are bad for us cause they can just deepstrike infantry 9 inches away." Last sentence. I agree about not taking boneswords though. Only reason why I might is because of other armies. Like da boyz. My bad, I didnt see the last sentence. I have issues about the IF Cents, although maybe from misunderstanding. I get the impression they can be really tanky walking up the board - something like always in cover, +1 to cover, ignore -1ap, +1 to save. Of course Cents dont care about ignore -1ap when in cover, but having a +3 to save while 2+ base sounds pretty disgusting. How likely to create I dont really know, but the sound of it ticks me off as is. I havent encountered IF before so I dont really know but that's what I got from a brief reading - IF dont really have a good slew of strategems other than Bolter Explode that I really noted, so they're mostly in it for the Ignore Cover and Bolter Explode base. ...Wait. Does that mean they can get a Tesla effect on 6s, where 1 unmod 6 is 3 hits? Jesus, that's one hell of a one trick pony... I wouldnt be surprised to see WS and IF in the same army now. Both of their super doctrines dont look great, at least compared to IH and RG. Jesus the thought of it is giving me some nightmares - Walking Bolter Cents with +3 to armor, then Outflanking Bolter Cents with 7" 3D6 charges. That's so ridiculously overbearing. Thank god no one in my meta owns that many Assault Centurions, and we're all too broke to buy them. Pretty sure the competitive meta is filled with IF and IH mainly with some RG sprinkled in. That's why it's important to waterfall exocrines and have something out of range. Cents are pretty slow so you're able to dwindle their effectiveness down by throwing points at them.
|
|
|
Post by No One on Jan 5, 2020 23:47:27 GMT
I have issues about the IF Cents, although maybe from misunderstanding. I get the impression they can be really tanky walking up the board - something like always in cover, +1 to cover, ignore -1ap, +1 to save. Of course Cents dont care about ignore -1ap when in cover, but having a +3 to save while 2+ base sounds pretty disgusting. How likely to create I dont really know, but the sound of it ticks me off as is. I havent encountered IF before so I dont really know but that's what I got from a brief reading - IF dont really have a good slew of strategems other than Bolter Explode that I really noted, so they're mostly in it for the Ignore Cover and Bolter Explode base. WL for ignore -1 if in cover. Strat for +1 to save if in a terrain feature (so doesn't work with stealthy), but only for as long as they don't move and once per battle. And strat for +1 sv on an objective. So they can't really stack them while walking up the board. They can actually go to 4 hits on 6s with Indomitus WLT to grab the Crimson Fist trait as well . Not something you can do on cents, so doubt it'd ever be worth the 2 CP for bolter drill, but still amusing. I dunno, doesn't seem as good compared to just running them all RG and dropping where you want. Take chap and Shrike for 7" rerollable, -1 to hit in terrain that works against ignores cover. Doesn't dakka as much as Fists, but also can't be TFC'd to basically never move.
|
|