interesting conundrum today on the FB group

[yoritomo]

Dec 11, 2019 16:18:31 GMT xsquidz said:

Nids used to have this back in like 2nd or 3rd. Carnifexes had 10 wounds and for every wound you had lost you could try to regen it on a 5+. But if you had lost say 14 wounds you would just put the model on its side and at the start of your next turn roll 14 dice and if you got say 5 back, he would get up with one wound.

Or something like that and it was nuts.

That was back in 2nd edition. The carnifex did have 10 wounds and the regeneration biomorph was 10 points per wound (so 100 points on the carnifex). Regen worked on a 4+ if I recall correctly and it was checked at the start of the movement phase. So if you made some of your regen rolls your carnifex would indeed get back up. In essence it worked just like feel no pain does now, you just checked for it at the start of the turn instead of when the wound happens (and you got to do it for all lost wounds every turn).


As an interesting side note, because of how regeneration worked in 2nd edition, your opponent had the option of shooting at your dead model in order to put more wounds on it.

[bigbadbalou]

As Mule's stated from the bonesword and lash's rule, the zombie Tyrant would not work. Even if it regains it's wound, if he's selected to fight but was already slain, it needs to be removed after it's normal attacks.

If the stratagem to fight after being slain don't mention to remove the model after it's attacks, that could be a thing though...

[topaxygourouni]

Dec 12, 2019 15:04:58 GMT bigbadbalou said:

As Mule's stated from the bonesword and lash's rule, the zombie Tyrant would not work. Even if it regains it's wound, if he's selected to fight but was already slain, it needs to be removed after it's normal attacks.

If the stratagem to fight after being slain don't mention to remove the model after it's attacks, that could be a thing though...

Raw you could argue that the weapon doesn't tell you to remove the model. It says leave it on the table, then attack before the model gets removed. If after your attack the model is not at 0 wounds, why would you remove it?

[dranzyl]

Propably so you dont get 'zombie' tyrants

[nintura]

"Use this Stratagem when a TYRANIDS CHARACTER from your army is slain; the HiveMind compels it to one final attack, and it can immediately either shoot as if it were your Shooting phase,or fight as if it were your Fight phase before it is removed from the battlefield."

Its treating removed as a normal dead model. It's not saying "remove it from the battlefield"

[mule]

Lol both are saying remove this model when you're done fighting with it. Every TO is going to rule against recouping wounds if the models dead

[topaxygourouni]

Dec 12, 2019 15:56:15 GMT mule said:

Lol both are saying remove this model when you're done fighting with it. Every TO is going to rule against recouping wounds if the models dead

They don't say to remove it, they say "fight with the model before it is removed", and if my monster doesn't have 0 wounds, why would I remove it from the table?

Apothecaries restore dead models to life all the time. Why would this be different?

[mule]

Dec 12, 2019 16:03:45 GMT topaxygourouni said:

Dec 12, 2019 15:56:15 GMT mule said:

Lol both are saying remove this model when you're done fighting with it. Every TO is going to rule against recouping wounds if the models dead

They don't say to remove it, they say "fight with the model before it is removed", and if my monster doesn't have 0 wounds, why would I remove it from the table?

Because it died. Because of the way combat works, we still have to activate the unit and attack with it. But at the end of that we remove it.

[N.I.B.]

This parrot is no more.

[mule]

We aint necrons, models coming back from the dead like that isn't intended for our army. So even in some backwards RAW interpretation, 99% sure every TO would rule that models removed from the board.

[bigbadbalou]

In both instances, it is mentionned that the effect of the weapon/stratagem occurs when it is slain. Ergo, we must consider from that point that it is already slain and nothing change that in both instances. Normally we would remove the model immediatly, but both rules just delay that so it can take it's action before being removed. Even if it heals wounds, consequence of being slain must still occure as it only have been delayed.

If the model is not slain, it cannot use the stratagem or the weapons ability. Neither the stratagem or the weapons or its ability to regain wounds remove the point that after being slain, a model must be removed from the battlefield. So even if the model regains wound, it must resume the rule for slain model and be removed.

Another way to see it. You can't use just a part of a rule to activate an ability and ignore the rest of the same rule if nothing tells you to ignore it. In this case, you can't just say "my model is slain so I activate this" and right after "The rest of the rule of being slain doesn't apply because my model still have wounds left now".

[nintura]

Dec 12, 2019 20:03:26 GMT bigbadbalou said:

In both instances, it is mentionned that the effect of the weapon/stratagem occurs when it is slain. Ergo, we must consider from that point that it is already slain and nothing change that in both instances. Normally we would remove the model immediatly, but both rules just delay that so it can take it's action before being removed. Even if it heals wounds, consequence of being slain must still occure as it only have been delayed.

If the model is not slain, it cannot use the stratagem or the weapons ability. Neither the stratagem or the weapons or its ability to regain wounds remove the point that after being slain, a model must be removed from the battlefield. So even if the model regains wound, it must resume the rule for slain model and be removed.

Another way to see it. You can't use just a part of a rule to activate an ability and ignore the rest of the same rule if nothing tells you to ignore it. In this case, you can't just say "my model is slain so I activate this" and right after "The rest of the rule of being slain doesn't apply because my model still have wounds left now".

And yet we humans die all the time only to be resuscitated.

[topaxygourouni]

There are no actions on either rule to remove the model.

[mule]

Lol a+ conversation. Ask the faq and any TO Id bet my house on them saying you cant resurect your models.

[topaxygourouni]

FAQ will say no because we're Nids, no news there.