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Post by nackanid on Dec 13, 2019 6:13:00 GMT
You can't use the some adaptation twice...
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Post by mule on Dec 13, 2019 6:28:14 GMT
You can't use the some adaptation twice... You can use 2 of the samy physiologies, you cand put 2 on the same unit.
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Post by nackanid on Dec 13, 2019 7:35:48 GMT
You can't use the some adaptation twice... You can use 2 of the samy physiologies, you cand put 2 on the same unit. You sure? Don't have the book in front of me... I'm so happy if I'm wrong because then one warrior-unit and on HG can take the same one!
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Post by topaxygourouni on Dec 13, 2019 8:25:32 GMT
You can use 2 of the samy physiologies, you cand put 2 on the same unit. You sure? Don't have the book in front of me... I'm so happy if I'm wrong because then one warrior-unit and on HG can take the same one! That is correct.
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Post by kociamafia on Dec 13, 2019 9:33:20 GMT
Kudos for the Run them Midfield approach. The -1 and -2 adaptation makes them extremely tanky against most types of melee and most types of shooting - just consider you're ignoring Dark Reapers, Assault Cannons, Heavy Burst Cannons, all of the IH/Executioner heavy anti-infantry guns, TFCs, and a whole host of things that would normally kill the HG/Warrior squads or wound them horribly, are now doing nothing to you. With that 3+ sv out in the open, and a Catalyst tacked on for good measure, this unit is going to take a lot of non anti-tank punishment before going down. As Tau, I need to burn a whole Riptide and a half or 2 to kill that Warrior squad (just real quick - 18 shots of 4+ to hit assuming Markerlights full in range of a Malanthrope bubble, 14 hits with 3+ to wound, 10 wounds, 5 failed saves, 2.5 out of 9 dead, or only 1.75 dead with strategem to reduce dmg). That's what i was thinking too. Pair that with genestealer sling and the distraction stratagem means they also have to clear genestealers first, and if they deploy things up the field i have a counter charge unit to clear my side of the board for the first two turns. I'm also planning on pairing the -S maleceptor strat with genestealer sling and running it midfield as well near the warrior units to dampen all the shooting vs them a -1. I'm sort of stuck on secondaries and list might change based off secondaries but it's something I generally work out after while I play practice games with my group. I don't have an engineers unit, maybe rippers coming in the end of turn 2? But yeah i think ive found a really strong sturdy list, but it's not killy, and things on the board are moving up the field so i'm not sure which direction i'm going to have to take. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) [51 PL, 7CP, 894pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +Battle-forged CP [3CP]Detachment CP [5CP]Hive Fleet: Jormungandr Stratagem: Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]+ HQ +Malanthropes [5 PL, 120pts]. Malanthrope Tyranid Prime [6 PL, 75pts]: Deathspitter, Scything Talons + Troops +Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm Tyranid Warriors [13 PL, 228pts]. Adaptive Physiology: Enhanced Resistance . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon): Scything Talons, Venom Cannon . Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon): Scything Talons, Venom Cannon . Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon): Scything Talons, Venom Cannon Tyranid Warriors [13 PL, 198pts]. Adaptive Physiology: Enhanced Resistance . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior: Deathspitter, Scything Talons . Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon): Scything Talons, Venom Cannon . Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon): Scything Talons, Venom Cannon + Heavy Support +Biovores [6 PL, 120pts]: 3x Biovore Biovores [6 PL, 120pts]: 3x Biovore ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids) [66 PL, 5CP, 1,038pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +Detachment CP [5CP]Hive Fleet: Kraken + HQ +Broodlord [8 PL, 115pts]The Swarmlord [15 PL, 250pts]+ Troops +Genestealers [16 PL, 240pts]: 5x Acid Maw, 20x Scything Talons . 20x Genestealer: 20x Rending Claws Genestealers [16 PL, 240pts]: 5x Acid Maw, 20x Scything Talons . 20x Genestealer: 20x Rending Claws Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 33pts]: 3x Ripper Swarm + Elites +Maleceptor [9 PL, 160pts]: Massive Scything Talons ++ Total: [117 PL, 12CP, 1,932pts] ++List is wip but I think its pretty good thus far. I really like your list. So you sling 1 unit of stealer & you keep the 2nd one for the counter charge ? You use Biovores mostly for movement block or do you actually hope for some MWs ? I see you have 68 points left. If you shed couple of stealers perhaps you can squeeze in a Neuro ? Or as a matter of fact 1 more warrior with Venom You could also drop 1 unit of GS & put 2x Exorcine in this list - Not sure if it would outweight a unit of Stealers. Plus I guess it s a contester for adaptations.
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Post by mule on Dec 13, 2019 16:16:47 GMT
I think shooting might be a trap i played them this weekend, exocrine did work but ultimately they didnt make their points back and would die right after i dropped them. Our shooty cant trade 1 for 1 the only unit id say we should still take enmasse is 12 hive guard because they can actually make their points back.
Biovores clog the map up and ensure me hold and hold more while i sling gs up the other side of the map with catalyst and the distraction stratagem so turn 1-2 my whole army is-1 or -2 on being shot. Pair that with daisy chaining the genestealers within 6 of my maleceptor midfield to ensure overwatch is at a -1 S. Should be able to sling my stealers up with swarmy and use the double move strat on the maleceptor to get it up the board turn 1.
The list is a work in progress the last 100 point float doesnt matter it was just me cutting things and putting things back in. I was playing around with putting 2x exocrine and 12 hive guard but was running into problems about only having 1 unit of genestealers amd no swarmy.
Id say we still need 2 units of genestealers. If we go second vs a flyer army theyre going to get focused down a -1 strength isnt going to keep them up very long so expect to lose the first unit on the first turn. There really arent any other better targets jormy warriors in a -1 bubble and -1s aura are too hard to remove. Genestealers will likely be the first thing to get shot and theyre important because theyre one of our fast troop choices so we can out play flyers by going into magic boxes and moving in and out of buildings easily.
Theyre hard to hide and just expect a unit to get shot off the board.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 13, 2019 18:10:18 GMT
This has been problem since day 1? Genestealers getting shot off the board? XD That's why GS always come in a Sling, or you bring like 60 or 80 and ask people what are they going to do about it. It just backfires tremendously when they actually do something about it. mule why is shooting a trap? Based on my analysis, Tyranid Melee is the real trap. Our shooting is decent as all heck. Can your Exocrene dropped with Dermas Adaptation survive some heavy guns looking his way or are you not clearing enough heavy guns? The key should be that it takes so much effort to kill this Exocrene after the drop that whatever else you brought alongside is still hunkydory and ready to rip new holes.
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Post by mule on Dec 13, 2019 18:52:12 GMT
This has been problem since day 1? Genestealers getting shot off the board? XD That's why GS always come in a Sling, or you bring like 60 or 80 and ask people what are they going to do about it. It just backfires tremendously when they actually do something about it. mule why is shooting a trap? Based on my analysis, Tyranid Melee is the real trap. Our shooting is decent as all heck. Can your Exocrene dropped with Dermas Adaptation survive some heavy guns looking his way or are you not clearing enough heavy guns? The key should be that it takes so much effort to kill this Exocrene after the drop that whatever else you brought alongside is still hunkydory and ready to rip new holes. Like I said, they just didn't pull their weight. I'd drop it, it'd clear 100-ish points of marine models and then it'd get ripped off the board right after. It eats up shooting but the follow up isn't great. We can't outshoot most armies, I thought it'd be a lot better but it wasn't great, I couldn't trade very well, i ate through a decent amount of their CP but the second i wanted to target something important they'd transhuman and it just didn't go well for me. I think 2x6 hiveguard is fine in a list, but i found that with the new bolter meta we can't just hold objectives with horma's/termas/rippers. They just die instantly. It was fine with the knight meta because people didn't have a lot of things to remove horde, but that's not the case anymore, and wasting an adaptiation on a horma squad just doesn't feel great to give it -1, -2. Hence why I think warriors are the way to go for midfield. Doing 2 units of warriors eats up a lot of points and doesn't really leave very much meat. I might HAVE to upgrade my warriors to bone swords, but i honestly want them to not really be threatening. I want them to be in combat and stuck there for 4 turns, it protects them from endgame shooting where they might only have 3-5 models in each squad left. Another issue I found with exo drops is just the extra tax. Exo + pod is fine, but to drop it turn 2 you need a kronos psyker with symbiostorm to pump the value of the exocrine up. So now you've got the value of a psyker who has to move up the board (my solution was a flyrant dropping with the exocrine with the +1 psychic power item so it could scream, smite and symbiostorm just to get that added value. It hit hard but again SM had the tools to just shrug it off. I'm saying it's a trap because barring hiveguard, nothing actually trades effectively. The difference between an exocrine and a IH army, is that they have universal range. Even if I started with 3 exocrines on the board, I can only move one up and double shoot with it each turn, I can't spend 3 CP and have all 3 move up and advance. It's really good alpha strike damage but it's broken up into multiple turns and that just doesn't have the same impact as 12 hiveguard shooting 3x. I don't think melee is that great either. As a matter of fact, thats why i'm using genestealers just to fling up the board and ensure turn 1-3 is as horrible for them as possible. Maleceptor -1S, -1 to hit from my genestealer sling and distraction stratagem, -1 to hit from malenthrope, ignore ap1-2 on my midfield unit who can also shrug off high strenght shots, bring rippers in on turn 2 and give them -1 to hit from shooting. Second unit of genestealers to stop any forward deploying unit. The only issue i'm having is how the hell do I stay ahead in points for ITC? I know I'll be able to hold and hold more, and get a kill, which only leaves hold, kill and kill more for my opponent, but turn 1-2 there really shouldn't even be a kill for my opponent just because of all the aura's i'm stacking. Biovores should cut off 1/2 their army and their movement paths so I should be able to slow the game down quite a bit. Just not sure which secondaries should be my main ones and what I need to change to ensure I either deny secondaries or guarentee my own.
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Post by mule on Dec 13, 2019 19:06:53 GMT
The only reason why I'm using genestealers btw is their speed. Move advance, SL sling, maleceptor gives them catalyst, charge into forward deployed units holding midfield (scouts etc) clear it, instead of consolidate pop stratagem move and advance put my genestealers right in their face and use the other stratagem to make them have to shoot my genestealers or their whole army gets -1 to shooting
This messes up target priority. 6 biovores should lock down one side of their army, and the genestealers should lock up their other side, this means turn 1 if we go first they cant move.
Turn 1 they use half their army clearing genestealers. Because they should be 5++ 5+++ with -1S because we daisy chain them to our midfield maleceptor. Turn 2 we should have 1/2 the board easily. If they don't have deepstrike we can fling our other unit of genestealers up the board and do the same thing securing us 2 turns of map control. Maleceptor should be in their face. 6 warrior venom cannon shots coming in with rippers and maly securing our backfield with -1's to hit in cover with the stratagem. The next 3 turns should be spent trying to remove us from the midfield. While we're focus firing our smites and shots into units making sure we secure kills every turn.
We should match points hold, hold more, kill vs their kill, killmore and hold.
Then it just comes down to secondaries.
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Post by wormlord666 on Dec 14, 2019 6:58:28 GMT
Mathhammering says a Kronos exocrine with symbiostorm gets their points back shooting 2 times against marines. Warriors are worse in that aspect. AP-1 is not great. They are however troops and can charge and move i ruins so they have other roles. I think it looks like the best list are combo lists with both shooting and fighting, which is nice.
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Post by mule on Dec 14, 2019 8:45:04 GMT
Mathhammering says a Kronos exocrine with symbiostorm gets their points back shooting 2 times against marines. Warriors are worse in that aspect. AP-1 is not great. They are however troops and can charge and move i ruins so they have other roles. I think it looks like the best list are combo lists with both shooting and fighting, which is nice. The ones I podded in, didn't live to shoot 2x, they came in symbiostorm shot one time and promptly got removed. If I targeted anything important they'd transhuman and I wouldn't even get 100 points worth of damage in.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 14, 2019 10:38:21 GMT
Mathhammering says a Kronos exocrine with symbiostorm gets their points back shooting 2 times against marines. Warriors are worse in that aspect. AP-1 is not great. They are however troops and can charge and move i ruins so they have other roles. I think it looks like the best list are combo lists with both shooting and fighting, which is nice. The ones I podded in, didn't live to shoot 2x, they came in symbiostorm shot one time and promptly got removed. If I targeted anything important they'd transhuman and I wouldn't even get 100 points worth of damage in. Are there no tanks? Yea Transhuman is a (please do not swear), you need to bait and switch that one or have enough firepower to Bury the target regardless.
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Post by wormlord666 on Dec 14, 2019 10:46:08 GMT
Mathhammering says a Kronos exocrine with symbiostorm gets their points back shooting 2 times against marines. Warriors are worse in that aspect. AP-1 is not great. They are however troops and can charge and move i ruins so they have other roles. I think it looks like the best list are combo lists with both shooting and fighting, which is nice. The ones I podded in, didn't live to shoot 2x, they came in symbiostorm shot one time and promptly got removed. If I targeted anything important they'd transhuman and I wouldn't even get 100 points worth of damage in. I plan on 2 exos, 6 HG on the ground with Maleceptor and mayby -1. That way opponent gets target prio problems, they are tough to kill and I can use HG to bait transhuman/lightingfast reaction/rotate ion shileds. I shoot half the HG first.
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Dec 14, 2019 14:02:34 GMT
Mathhammering says a Kronos exocrine with symbiostorm gets their points back shooting 2 times against marines. Warriors are worse in that aspect. AP-1 is not great. They are however troops and can charge and move i ruins so they have other roles. I think it looks like the best list are combo lists with both shooting and fighting, which is nice. The ones I podded in, didn't live to shoot 2x, they came in symbiostorm shot one time and promptly got removed. If I targeted anything important they'd transhuman and I wouldn't even get 100 points worth of damage in. Note: on transhuman and exos you can shoot your weapons 2x and do not need to target the same unit. I'd try to bait it out with the first exos first shots, then just target something else.
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Post by mule on Dec 14, 2019 15:56:32 GMT
The ones I podded in, didn't live to shoot 2x, they came in symbiostorm shot one time and promptly got removed. If I targeted anything important they'd transhuman and I wouldn't even get 100 points worth of damage in. Are there no tanks? Yea Transhuman is a (please do not swear), you need to bait and switch that one or have enough firepower to Bury the target regardless. Generally speaking tanks arent the issue. Bait and switch doesn't work afaik they can use it when a unit is targeted. If i could drop 3 exocrines in the same turn and had them all count as not moved then yes thatd work, but the damage is spread out over 2 turns so it doesnt work. Feel free to try it yourselves. My killy lists are going to include 2x hive guard instead of exocrines.
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