Post by ilovethenids on Dec 3, 2019 18:11:05 GMT
Hello all!
I'm posting this just to start a discussion on the stuff mentioned in the subject. Specifically, I am wondering what people think of Hormagaunts as they are currently, as doing some basic Mathhammer comparing them to Termagants, they tend to come out on top if you assume 30-man units of both and are fighting against GEQ, MEQ, or TEQ, both in wounds inflicted and points per wound. Obviously the biggest weakness of this is it doesn't account for the fact that Hormagaunts have to take potentially withering overwatch fire before they can have a chance to inflict any damage, so I wanted to start a discussion on how the two compare. This is partially because I am very much a homebrewer as someone who loves the aesthetic of a sea of blades I love hormagaunts and want to make sure they perform as they should. Thoughts I've had about potential improvements have been +1WS (though without increasing points I think this would likely be overpowered given they already have re-rolling 1s), +1S on the charge, or even just not removing overwatch casualties until the end of the Fight phase. However, I'd like to hear thoughts from others as to how you think Hormagaunts fare!
The second thing I'd like to foster discussion on is toxin sacs (and stuff like toxic lashes). I think it was a stupid idea to change the way toxin sacs work from 7th to 8th, as they are largely useless the way they are now. Would toxin sacs be better if instead of the dumb "buff" they give now, they instead made it so all melee attacks against INFANTRY and MONSTERS wound on a 4+, unless with their strength value it would be better than 4+ (in which case it could let them re-roll wound rolls, possibly)? This could make toxin sacs worth actually taking in some cases, especially if facing a lot of high-toughness monsters, or even just to give melee monsters additional punch from the re-rolling wounds. I also think that the beasts like the Venomthropes and Toxicrenes should have such a rule included with their toxic lashes - they are specifically meant to be poisoning creatures, so why do they not HAVE poison? In my opinion, toxic lashes should have a flat wound roll of 4+, perhaps with a stratagem that could make it 2+. What do y'all think? Would it be too much, or would it be a fair change?
Last thing I wanted to discuss is the current Hive Fleet traits. As pretty much everybody knows, most of them are trash. However, I'm wondering how we could change them to make it such that choosing something like Gorgon or Hydra could actually be a viable choice over the main staples of Kraken or Kronos. Partially got to thinking of this after looking at the new stratagems, and realizing that it would be possible to give Gorgon Hormagaunts -2AP in combat
, and lamenting the fact that means losing out on much better Hive Fleet traits for a single gimmick 
. Anyways, here's what I'm thinking so far.
Behemoth: I feel this one should just be a flat +1" to charge rolls, instead of just a re-roll. I know there are other armies that have +1 as a trait, so there is clear precedent for it. This would also give even more incentive to take Adrenal Glands in Behemoth lists, as you would then be getting +2 to charge rolls. I'd also think they should get some sort of buff for monsters, though I'm not sure exactly what. Perhaps all Monsters get +1WS on the turn they charge?
Gorgon: Hard to say exactly how to fix this one, as part of the problem is that several units that could benefit from it (Hormagaunts) have the ability naturally, thus defeating the purpose of the trait to begin with. Perhaps extending the re-roll to ranged attacks as well, and then some second trait buff (as now all faction traits have two buffs).
Hydra: This one I think is the hardest to "fix", and may not even be possible to do without totally violating the fluff behind the hive fleet. One way I could see would be to word it differently such that "outnumber" merely means that the number of total Wounds (ie even if a Carnifex is at 3 Wounds, you still count it as 8) across all the Hydra models in a combat is greater than the number of Wounds across all the enemy models. This would mean the buff could affect Monsters and other low model-count Tyranid units such as Warriors, as a 10+W TMC could charge a 10-man squad of gaurdsmen or tactical marines, and would outnumber them. Might be a little too math-heavy though. I'd also change the wording to be re-roll ALL wound rolls, so that you don't lose dice due to penalties to hit rolls.
Jormungandr: The biggest problem with Jormungandr is the fact that so many armies have the ability to ignore cover either through army-wide traits, or unit-specific rules. This means your buff can be entirely useless based on the matchup, which shouldn't be a possibility in a balanced game. This one is a relatively simple fix, actually. The way I would fix it is instead of saying that Jormungandr units count as being in cover if they don't advance or charge, I would simply say they get +1 to their saving throws against ranged attacks. By saying that explicitly, it can no longer be negated by rules that ignore cover.
Leviathan: Considering several other codices have army-wide traits that give a flat 6+++, I see absolutely no reason why the Leviathan buff should be limited to those within 6" of a Synapse Creature. I'd say either make it to all creatures within Synapse range, perhaps giving +1 to Synapse creatures themselves (ie things like Warriors, Hive Tyrants, etc. would have a 5++). Also possibly give a flat +6" to the synapse range of all Synapse Creatures, that could stack with other biomorphs/artefacts.
I think Kronos and Kraken are good as they are, so I wouldn't bother trying to change them. Looking forward to seeing where this discussion goes!
I'm posting this just to start a discussion on the stuff mentioned in the subject. Specifically, I am wondering what people think of Hormagaunts as they are currently, as doing some basic Mathhammer comparing them to Termagants, they tend to come out on top if you assume 30-man units of both and are fighting against GEQ, MEQ, or TEQ, both in wounds inflicted and points per wound. Obviously the biggest weakness of this is it doesn't account for the fact that Hormagaunts have to take potentially withering overwatch fire before they can have a chance to inflict any damage, so I wanted to start a discussion on how the two compare. This is partially because I am very much a homebrewer as someone who loves the aesthetic of a sea of blades I love hormagaunts and want to make sure they perform as they should. Thoughts I've had about potential improvements have been +1WS (though without increasing points I think this would likely be overpowered given they already have re-rolling 1s), +1S on the charge, or even just not removing overwatch casualties until the end of the Fight phase. However, I'd like to hear thoughts from others as to how you think Hormagaunts fare!
The second thing I'd like to foster discussion on is toxin sacs (and stuff like toxic lashes). I think it was a stupid idea to change the way toxin sacs work from 7th to 8th, as they are largely useless the way they are now. Would toxin sacs be better if instead of the dumb "buff" they give now, they instead made it so all melee attacks against INFANTRY and MONSTERS wound on a 4+, unless with their strength value it would be better than 4+ (in which case it could let them re-roll wound rolls, possibly)? This could make toxin sacs worth actually taking in some cases, especially if facing a lot of high-toughness monsters, or even just to give melee monsters additional punch from the re-rolling wounds. I also think that the beasts like the Venomthropes and Toxicrenes should have such a rule included with their toxic lashes - they are specifically meant to be poisoning creatures, so why do they not HAVE poison? In my opinion, toxic lashes should have a flat wound roll of 4+, perhaps with a stratagem that could make it 2+. What do y'all think? Would it be too much, or would it be a fair change?
Last thing I wanted to discuss is the current Hive Fleet traits. As pretty much everybody knows, most of them are trash. However, I'm wondering how we could change them to make it such that choosing something like Gorgon or Hydra could actually be a viable choice over the main staples of Kraken or Kronos. Partially got to thinking of this after looking at the new stratagems, and realizing that it would be possible to give Gorgon Hormagaunts -2AP in combat
, and lamenting the fact that means losing out on much better Hive Fleet traits for a single gimmick 
. Anyways, here's what I'm thinking so far.Behemoth: I feel this one should just be a flat +1" to charge rolls, instead of just a re-roll. I know there are other armies that have +1 as a trait, so there is clear precedent for it. This would also give even more incentive to take Adrenal Glands in Behemoth lists, as you would then be getting +2 to charge rolls. I'd also think they should get some sort of buff for monsters, though I'm not sure exactly what. Perhaps all Monsters get +1WS on the turn they charge?
Gorgon: Hard to say exactly how to fix this one, as part of the problem is that several units that could benefit from it (Hormagaunts) have the ability naturally, thus defeating the purpose of the trait to begin with. Perhaps extending the re-roll to ranged attacks as well, and then some second trait buff (as now all faction traits have two buffs).
Hydra: This one I think is the hardest to "fix", and may not even be possible to do without totally violating the fluff behind the hive fleet. One way I could see would be to word it differently such that "outnumber" merely means that the number of total Wounds (ie even if a Carnifex is at 3 Wounds, you still count it as 8) across all the Hydra models in a combat is greater than the number of Wounds across all the enemy models. This would mean the buff could affect Monsters and other low model-count Tyranid units such as Warriors, as a 10+W TMC could charge a 10-man squad of gaurdsmen or tactical marines, and would outnumber them. Might be a little too math-heavy though. I'd also change the wording to be re-roll ALL wound rolls, so that you don't lose dice due to penalties to hit rolls.
Jormungandr: The biggest problem with Jormungandr is the fact that so many armies have the ability to ignore cover either through army-wide traits, or unit-specific rules. This means your buff can be entirely useless based on the matchup, which shouldn't be a possibility in a balanced game. This one is a relatively simple fix, actually. The way I would fix it is instead of saying that Jormungandr units count as being in cover if they don't advance or charge, I would simply say they get +1 to their saving throws against ranged attacks. By saying that explicitly, it can no longer be negated by rules that ignore cover.
Leviathan: Considering several other codices have army-wide traits that give a flat 6+++, I see absolutely no reason why the Leviathan buff should be limited to those within 6" of a Synapse Creature. I'd say either make it to all creatures within Synapse range, perhaps giving +1 to Synapse creatures themselves (ie things like Warriors, Hive Tyrants, etc. would have a 5++). Also possibly give a flat +6" to the synapse range of all Synapse Creatures, that could stack with other biomorphs/artefacts.
I think Kronos and Kraken are good as they are, so I wouldn't bother trying to change them. Looking forward to seeing where this discussion goes!
