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Post by kragg on Nov 29, 2019 20:46:54 GMT
Certainly not cheap wins, I lose almost everything to keep them at bay and it’s normally very close. The trades are almost always bad. Very few clean games. On reflection, I understand where everyone is coming from, and tbh it’s not great to win most of the games by hiding and waiting it out after I get the VP lead lol.
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Post by mule on Nov 29, 2019 20:55:41 GMT
Certainly not cheap wins, I lose almost everything to keep them at bay and it’s normally very close. The trades are almost always bad. Very few clean games. On reflection, I understand where everyone is coming from, and tbh it’s not great to win most of the games by hiding and waiting it out after I get the VP lead lol. We shouldn't HAVE to do that to win. I mean it makes for good games but it's the SM player's game to lose, not our game to win. We have to capitalize on their mistakes or we lose and if they are careful about where they move. (Tournament's they'lll care a lot more about that.) We have a hard time just smashing units without trading equally or unevenly. |
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Post by mattblowers on Nov 29, 2019 21:24:37 GMT
Certainly not cheap wins, I lose almost everything to keep them at bay. Wasn’t meant to be an insult. But counting on a superior army to turtle up because you hid some genestealers out of sight and let you win on points when mathhammer shows them as the favorite seems like a stolen win to me. And I’ve stolen plenty of games but usually not against great opponents. It certainly isn’t my game plan UNLESS all other options are taken from me. We don’t win on killing ability, certainly not sustainability, and not even movement anymore. Hoping for my opponent to derp the mission is not really a plan. |
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Post by mattblowers on Nov 29, 2019 21:30:05 GMT
They won't be selling any to me. I played skyblight. I rocked double skyblight for a while with about a .500 record. Now all those models are chumps. |
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Post by timcz on Nov 29, 2019 21:51:08 GMT
I’ll have to rummage through the cupboard and take a look. I think I have 40, but it may be 50?
I wouldn’t mind 60 for a bit of fun...
They are lovely looking models
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Post by No One on Nov 30, 2019 0:43:13 GMT
Quick example. Players are well aware of say, how fast and deadly Genestealers are. It's to your advantage parking them nearby out of LOS and NOT engaging the enemy. They end up hesitant to push out because they haven't dealt with them and waste time. Speed =/= gotta go fast. It's the promise of it that manipulates the opponents play. You control the game. There is a reason basically every good SM list has TFC: very strong ignore LoS shooting, and has an incredibly powerful movement reduction strat (with double tap strat too). Also fliers make hiding out of LoS basically impossible. 5 pt gargs is eh: not bad, but not going to change much. Especially if they lose AG access because of Legends (don't know how that's going to work). |
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 30, 2019 0:56:26 GMT
Not to mention that being able to hide large infantry units out of LoS is practically impossible to begin with.
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Post by mule on Nov 30, 2019 1:01:16 GMT
Quick example. Players are well aware of say, how fast and deadly Genestealers are. It's to your advantage parking them nearby out of LOS and NOT engaging the enemy. They end up hesitant to push out because they haven't dealt with them and waste time. Speed =/= gotta go fast. It's the promise of it that manipulates the opponents play. You control the game. There is a reason basically every good SM list has TFC: very strong ignore LoS shooting, and has an incredibly powerful movement reduction strat (with double tap strat too). Also fliers make hiding out of LoS basically impossible. 5 pt gargs is eh: not bad, but not going to change much. Especially if they lose AG access because of Legends (don't know how that's going to work). Not to mention that youre talking about 40 models you have to hide unless youre only taking one unit, in which case they just need to wait, go second. If you push up your genestealers probably dont have synapse because double move and charge and kill their screen and sling shot and then double fight to pile in and tripoint. Then they just charge centurions in and you traded your genestealers and 5cp for scouts. If you dont go forwards they have their flyer push up and remove your genestealers, at best you trade genestealers for their flyer. If theyre going second your turn two you bring your flyrants in to pyschic scream 2x smite and charge possibly killing it. But theyve still killed your biggest threat unit, and theyve traded evenly. Now your flyrants are exposed and easy to have the rest of their gunbase remove your 400 points of flyrants. Meanwhile both of you are scoring kills and holds but you've traded 600 points for 300 points. |
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Post by yoritomo on Nov 30, 2019 6:50:52 GMT
Played Nids in 3rd, 5th and 8th. I've been playing local tournaments but not ITC rules, so that is likely a big factor to my wins. Personally not a fan of ITC. Biggest change up with the SM kit is that we really can't get away with careless movement and charges. Granted it always feels like an uphill battle to directly engage enemy forces, but our speed gives us brilliant board control. So I've won through objectives. Quick example. Players are well aware of say, how fast and deadly Genestealers are. It's to your advantage parking them nearby out of LOS and NOT engaging the enemy. They end up hesitant to push out because they haven't dealt with them and waste time. Speed =/= gotta go fast. It's the promise of it that manipulates the opponents play. You control the game. This is obviously a limited example because it largely depends on what your opponent is using, but my point is that the game isn't just won through numbers alone. Not going to deny that a lot of the units are hardly worth bringing and this needs to be addressed. I also agree that Tyranids have trouble in that the play is very unforgiving. We can't just casually deploy and play like a lot of SM players because mistakes are far more punishing. However, is it the doom and gloom "literally unplayable"? I think not. I'll second kragg here. I've had a tremendous amount of success with genestealers in 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th edition (I couldn't make them work in 3rd edition). That is saying something seeing how bad most people found them in 5th, 6th, and 7th edition. A lot of that success had to do with shifting their role from super stabby things to an area denial unit. If you park a unit of stealers out of LoS but within striking distance of an objective a lot of players (even good players) have problems dealing with it. Many players find this counter intuitive. After all, a close combat unit hiding in a corner isn't going to make its points back. But with an army that has to squeeze out VPs wherever it can this kind of move can win you the game. I'll also be the first one to point out that you need more than just hidden genestealers to win a game. There are also shifts in the meta than need to be taken into account. Let's be honest, with the 8th edition shift stealer slingshot became viable and stealer counter charge looks silly, but if it works then ride that horse as long as you can. |
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Post by purestrain on Nov 30, 2019 7:16:37 GMT
Played Nids in 3rd, 5th and 8th. I've been playing local tournaments but not ITC rules, so that is likely a big factor to my wins. Personally not a fan of ITC. Biggest change up with the SM kit is that we really can't get away with careless movement and charges. Granted it always feels like an uphill battle to directly engage enemy forces, but our speed gives us brilliant board control. So I've won through objectives. Quick example. Players are well aware of say, how fast and deadly Genestealers are. It's to your advantage parking them nearby out of LOS and NOT engaging the enemy. They end up hesitant to push out because they haven't dealt with them and waste time. Speed =/= gotta go fast. It's the promise of it that manipulates the opponents play. You control the game. This is obviously a limited example because it largely depends on what your opponent is using, but my point is that the game isn't just won through numbers alone. Not going to deny that a lot of the units are hardly worth bringing and this needs to be addressed. I also agree that Tyranids have trouble in that the play is very unforgiving. We can't just casually deploy and play like a lot of SM players because mistakes are far more punishing. However, is it the doom and gloom "literally unplayable"? I think not. I'll second kragg here. I've had a tremendous amount of success with genestealers in 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th edition (I couldn't make them work in 3rd edition). That is saying something seeing how bad most people found them in 5th, 6th, and 7th edition. A lot of that success had to do with shifting their role from super stabby things to an area denial unit. If you park a unit of stealers out of LoS but within striking distance of an objective a lot of players (even good players) have problems dealing with it. Many players find this counter intuitive. After all, a close combat unit hiding in a corner isn't going to make its points back. But with an army that has to squeeze out VPs wherever it can this kind of move can win you the game. I'll also be the first one to point out that you need more than just hidden genestealers to win a game. There are also shifts in the meta than need to be taken into account. Let's be honest, with the 8th edition shift stealer slingshot became viable and stealer counter charge looks silly, but if it works then ride that horse as long as you can. This literally comes down to if your meta has Non-Los Marine cannons or not, thats it. you have them in your meta? cant hide, must fight or ds bomb. dont have them? make sure your not on planet bowlingball and play hide and seek like the hive mind is a 3 year old that takes its fun/temper tantrums out on planets because its constantly hangry but cant do anything about it. |
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Post by mule on Nov 30, 2019 7:42:28 GMT
I'll second kragg here. I've had a tremendous amount of success with genestealers in 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th edition (I couldn't make them work in 3rd edition). That is saying something seeing how bad most people found them in 5th, 6th, and 7th edition. A lot of that success had to do with shifting their role from super stabby things to an area denial unit. If you park a unit of stealers out of LoS but within striking distance of an objective a lot of players (even good players) have problems dealing with it. Many players find this counter intuitive. After all, a close combat unit hiding in a corner isn't going to make its points back. But with an army that has to squeeze out VPs wherever it can this kind of move can win you the game. I'll also be the first one to point out that you need more than just hidden genestealers to win a game. There are also shifts in the meta than need to be taken into account. Let's be honest, with the 8th edition shift stealer slingshot became viable and stealer counter charge looks silly, but if it works then ride that horse as long as you can. This literally comes down to if your meta has Non-Los Marine cannons or not, thats it. you have them in your meta? cant hide, must fight or ds bomb. dont have them? make sure your not on planet bowlingball and play hide and seek like the hive mind is a 3 year old that takes its fun/temper tantrums out on planets because its constantly hangry but cant do anything about it. I'm honestly curious if we're able to put that dynamic camoflauge on jormy genestealers who instead of taking the swift and deadly rule takes the extended carapaces rule. Means we save on a 4+ with a +2 to saves. So an AP 0 gun we're getting a 2+ save on genestealers, with a 5+ invuln. Most indirect fire doesn't ignore cover, we're one of the only factions who benefit from that, this means the jormy effect still kicks in. It'd honestly be nice if we could get more than one warlord trait. Like if we're able to CP dump that make our units able to with stand things, actual shooting, and present close range threats. It could honestly put us in a good spot. Specially since, CP stuff doesn't need to be put into a list. I'm honestly hoping its like 3 adaptations we can get. 3 Warlord traits on genestealer cult feels nice. It'd be nice if we could just pay 3 and adapt 3 units. Doubly so if all 3 carnifex get the benefits. Dynamic camo on jormy carnifex means our opponent has -1 to hit, and and on ap 0 we're saving on 1's. |
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Post by dc0315 on Nov 30, 2019 8:19:55 GMT
This literally comes down to if your meta has Non-Los Marine cannons or not, thats it. you have them in your meta? cant hide, must fight or ds bomb. dont have them? make sure your not on planet bowlingball and play hide and seek like the hive mind is a 3 year old that takes its fun/temper tantrums out on planets because its constantly hangry but cant do anything about it. I'm honestly curious if we're able to put that dynamic camoflauge on jormy genestealers who instead of taking the swift and deadly rule takes the extended carapaces rule. Means we save on a 4+ with a +2 to saves. So an AP 0 gun we're getting a 2+ save on genestealers, with a 5+ invuln. Most indirect fire doesn't ignore cover, we're one of the only factions who benefit from that, this means the jormy effect still kicks in. It'd honestly be nice if we could get more than one warlord trait. Like if we're able to CP dump that make our units able to with stand things, actual shooting, and present close range threats. It could honestly put us in a good spot. Specially since, CP stuff doesn't need to be put into a list. I'm honestly hoping its like 3 adaptations we can get. 3 Warlord traits on genestealer cult feels nice. It'd be nice if we could just pay 3 and adapt 3 units. Doubly so if all 3 carnifex get the benefits. Dynamic camo on jormy carnifex means our opponent has -1 to hit, and and on ap 0 we're saving on 1's. Im surprised no one mentions imperial fists. We have a guy here who plays 6 aggressors as fists. Thats 12+2d6 grenades that pop on 6s. Then use a strat to double pop on 6s. 1 aggressor on a unit of zoanthropes last week got 30 wounds...from 1 aggressor. And before you say they have short range. They moved forward and this was t3. Also prepare for alot of them mixed with iron hands for armies like us if we start to use this stuff with jorm. Also imperial fist eliminators just kill a neurothrope the only way hes survived for me is because i was playing leviathan and i saved 1 wound on a fnp of 6+ |
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Post by jesper77 on Nov 30, 2019 8:30:44 GMT
Fun fact, was watching the newly released stream from renegade opens final game. Pablo and others were talking and they started to talk about nids. During AdeptiCon Matt rott and some Benjamin guy was playing a double against the developers at GW. They played Hive tyrant spam, and when it was the developers turn they only had rippers to target. Also heard in a podcast just after AdeptiCon, the year Root won, the developers didnt even know the rules for their own nids. This is the guys making our stuff. Salty people who doesnt even know the rules. No wonder nids are in the state its in. Sad ...
Wish someone told em Nids shouldnt be able to get targeted becuase their T sucks, their Save sucks, they lack inv saves and their - to hit dont stack so ofc they should be able to not get targeted.
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 30, 2019 8:59:57 GMT
If you take extended carapace, you loose advance+charge which the entire point of stealers and you're left with expensive single wound infantry that still dies to weight of fire and plasma.
I did some stealer counter charge early on, back in the index. Worked poorly. Gets shot. Maybe if you have a very specific setup with large LoS blocking ruins, or, better yet, several ITC magic boxes, sure. But that's not a normal setup.
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 30, 2019 9:50:51 GMT
Genestealer Sling stopped working the moment you're working on standard LVO or Adepticon terrain - with Fliers crossing the gap with massive anti-infantry guns, and TFCs cutting move advance and charges in half, a Genestealer unit is not a threat to a reasonably well prepared SM.
A countwrcharge/terrain hiding Genestealer has merits, but it comes down to having terrain to hide in. Usually the only place that's safe for that strategy, is to be in combat somewhere near the enemy, and hopefully he doesn't hit hard enough in combat to hurt you.
But ehhhhh. We've gone through the same arguments so many times, even I'm getting sick of reiterating.
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