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Post by acehilator on Nov 29, 2019 0:45:58 GMT
Rule of three is a thing. And we will not get +1 shooting, lol.
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Post by No One on Nov 29, 2019 0:47:40 GMT
They're DT, they get around rule of 3.
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Post by mattblowers on Nov 29, 2019 1:22:13 GMT
Ain’t no one gonna buy and build 10+ Tyranocytes. Let alone build and paint them. And they would be madness to transport.
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Post by 1b2a on Nov 29, 2019 1:31:06 GMT
Ain’t no one gonna buy and build 10+ Tyranocytes. Let alone build and paint them. And they would be madness to transport. 40 S8 -2 d3 dmg HITTING on average. You can just buy those alien egg things as a "conversion". Good luck auspex scanning a 36" range drop |
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 29, 2019 2:09:48 GMT
I genuinely don't understand the levels of salt on this forum. I've not had any problems winning most of my games with Tyranids, even with the new SM rules. These changes look exciting to me, opening up the viability to bring a wider range of units, and hence strategies, to the board. I feel the same, is ITC somehow more difficult for tyranids or what causes this disparity? I have had good success with my nids even in tournaments, but here in europe ITC is not the norm, so maybe that’s why I don’t experience this. Granted the new marines are tough, but they still die easy. SM have a good game in alpha drops and burst damage - they have a protected T1/T2 that is difficult to mitigate, good trading units that are priced decent, a fairly high number of both anti-tank and anti-infantry weaponry in any given list, decent board control, and quite a few tricks to bend rule support in their favour. ETC is a ruleset that favours map based objective holding far more than it does killing enemies, whereas 2/3 of ITC objectives can be scored by target priority. This would be one of the sources of disparity - when you come in T1 and wipe 1/3 of the enemy list and put yourself at a huge lead, the army is capable of continuing that lead with reasonable map presence in scouts/infils/incurs/Elims while the heavy duty punchers drop in turn after turn to punch your face in. The opponent who lost 1/3 may try to respond, but with a kill-centric scoring system and the base map control SM have, outscoring them can be difficult so closing the gap is hard. For context though, a standard IH list is capable of wiping around 60-80 Levi Gaunts off the map in 1 turn. It is not bad-touchable because all the main guns have FLY. Even on progressive map scoring, its difficult to maintain a lead without the right cards in place because of how quickly you lose map presence to shooting, unless the enemy makes mistakes and gives you safe havens to hostage. While it's good news that you're doing well, please be aware that this is still a very difficult army to fight, and on the "cutting edge" it takes an extremely skilled General or a huge skill disparity to maintain a reasonable chance of success. People will normally take offense to claims inundating their struggles. |
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Post by No One on Nov 29, 2019 3:45:04 GMT
For context though, a standard IHSM list is capable of wiping around 60-80 Levi Gaunts off the map in 1 turn. FTFY  . But yeah, most SM list, apart from IH, has cents/aggressors. Which kill ~~50-60 gaunts by themselves. Those that don't are still usually running a bunch of intercessors and stuff like invictors/redemptors, which aren't as good at killing gaunts but still reasonable. And honestly, I'd say 80's probably lowballing it based on some lists I've seen: each flier kills ~15. 3 fliers, say 40. An executioner kills ~20 at 24": 3 fliers+executioner isn't even half the army, and kills ~60-80 with TFC. Take the other 3 fliers, another repulsor exec, some impulsors, relic leviathan, more TFC etc etc. I wouldn't be surprised at a good IH list being able to comfortably kill 100 gaunts T1 (admittedly rough maths without mal, which does do some work on cutting the flier firewpower), and more T2 as other guns/intercessors etc come into range. |
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Post by hiveoverall on Nov 29, 2019 6:44:33 GMT
I genuinely don't understand the levels of salt on this forum. I've not had any problems winning most of my games with Tyranids, even with the new SM rules. These changes look exciting to me, opening up the viability to bring a wider range of units, and hence strategies, to the board. I feel the same, is ITC somehow more difficult for tyranids or what causes this disparity? I have had good success with my nids even in tournaments, but here in europe ITC is not the norm, so maybe that’s why I don’t experience this. Granted the new marines are tough, but they still die easy. I play nearly exclusively ETC and in ten days will be at the French qualifiers in the Paris region. And I can tell you that nearly no team is running any tyranids. Pure gsc with no Tyranids is what most teams have in their roster. Everyone around me agrees that it is impossible to win with them right now against SM, but not just SM (ad mech is tough). So that goes for team tournaments. Now I also attend regularly “individual” tournaments which use etc rules (and currently this means huge LOS blocking ruins, ugly as h..l) and I can tell you that there hasn’t been more than one nid player in the last tournaments way before the supplements hit. Also look at the WTC (winter team championship -etc rulepack stuff-) lists, you will so nearly no nids, none of the few did well as I recall. so no one is doing better here in ETC land then in ITC. I think you will find nids doing well only in local non competitive groups, ETC or ITC regardless |
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Post by kociamafia on Nov 29, 2019 7:02:18 GMT
I feel the same, is ITC somehow more difficult for tyranids or what causes this disparity? I have had good success with my nids even in tournaments, but here in europe ITC is not the norm, so maybe that’s why I don’t experience this. Granted the new marines are tough, but they still die easy. I play nearly exclusively ETC and in ten days will be at the French qualifiers in the Paris region. And I can tell you that nearly no team is running any tyranids. Pure gsc with no Tyranids is what most teams have in their roster. Everyone around me agrees that it is impossible to win with them right now against SM, but not just SM (ad mech is tough). So that goes for team tournaments. Now I also attend regularly “individual” tournaments which use etc rules (and currently this means huge LOS blocking ruins, ugly as h..l) and I can tell you that there hasn’t been more than one nid player in the last tournaments way before the supplements hit. Also look at the WTC (winter team championship -etc rulepack stuff-) lists, you will so nearly no nids, none of the few did well as I recall. so no one is doing better here in ETC land then in ITC. I think you will find nids doing well only in local non competitive groups, ETC or ITC regardless This, 1000 times this. Me & my team are preparing for Prague Open GT 2020 & guess how many Nids do we have |
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Post by kelermorph on Nov 29, 2019 7:12:15 GMT
I´m too lazy to quote everyone who answered to me, so I´ll just sum up my thoughts: *I´m not intentionally downplaying anyone´s problems or experiences, I´m just genuinely interested *I must correct that I don´t play pure nids, I almost always have at least a battalion of GSC as well *This is getting off-topic so for my part there is no need to continue this. I understand that my meta is not the same as for everyone
But I must add that I´m super glad every time I see a drop pod in my enemy´s list, because I just screen with blips and termagants so he can´t get to anything valuable and if my opponent is silly enough to drop his pod anywhere even remotely close to me I just go touch it with everything I have and hit with my "close combat weapon"-option so it doesn´t die.
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Post by gigica on Nov 29, 2019 9:04:36 GMT
I played i think the only tyranids(only one with a warlord from tyranids-1100 pts tyranids 900pts cult) on wtc and went with 46pts out of 100 which is not that bad. I won against titans and custodes, drew against deamons and lost to orks and iron hands. Iron hands game was over in his 1st shooting phase where he killed almost a 1000 pts of tyranids (2 tyranofexes, 1 exocrine, 6 hiveguard, 1 unit of gants). Unlike other games where i stood a chance(even against orks which i also lost 20:0), and could get some points- this one was over immediately. It vaguely reminded me of bad times of editions prior(i am looking at you no7!*)- btw been playing tyranids since 1997.
Unfortunately this ca and pa previews actually do nothing for us in competitive department against that kind of lists. Our non-tyrants monsters are super squishy(lacking damage reduction,fnp or invul saves) against anti tank weaponry, are super slow, and most of the time are required to remain stationary if you wish to do something with them. In my opinion against other lists and with a little help from the cult we do suprisingly good considering how poor our rules are- thats mostly because of the board control we are still able to achieve.
It is a shame because our model range is really good, and it would be nice to see diverse lists using different monsters, and gantlings to compete.
Sorry if this is off topic.
*nah just kidding, nothing can compare to playing against unkillable psychic deathstars
Hopefully we are going to get something interesting that will allow for a bit of fresh air in our list building(maybe even a 100% tyranids list).
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Post by No One on Nov 29, 2019 9:40:34 GMT
*nah just kidding, nothing can compare to playing against unkillable psychic deathstars You say that, but my games in 7th against deathstars were more fun than my games against IH, at least from the few games I had with Cult against either. Deathstars I could avoid and score, potentially injure/delay depending on buffs, and at worst had difficulty killing all my stuff. IH, or at least repulsors/flier variants? Basically can't kill them or interact with them and much more able to pick my army up. |
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Post by sneggy on Nov 29, 2019 9:48:19 GMT
Sorry to be the bringer of more doom and gloom but here goes.
This is purely a rumour but the guy telling me has been spot on for everything else.
Abberants up 3pts
Stop signs up 15!!!!!!
Acolytes up 1
Rock saws up 5
So thats GSC without demo bikes, aberrants, acolytes then....not sure whats left really. Maybe my 9 ridgerunner joke army is actually the best build now. Jesus
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Post by kurtangle2 on Nov 29, 2019 10:00:27 GMT
Sorry to be the bringer of more doom and gloom but here goes. This is purely a rumour but the guy telling me has been spot on for everything else. Abberants up 3pts Stop signs up 15!!!!!! Acolytes up 1 Rock saws up 5 So thats GSC without demo bikes, aberrants, acolytes then....not sure whats left really. Maybe my 9 ridgerunner joke army is actually the best build now. Jesus Seems unreal because it would destroy the entire army considering that the nerfs are FOUR |
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Post by gigica on Nov 29, 2019 10:06:17 GMT
*nah just kidding, nothing can compare to playing against unkillable psychic deathstars You say that, but my games in 7th against deathstars were more fun than my games against IH, at least from the few games I had with Cult against either. Deathstars I could avoid and score, potentially injure/delay depending on buffs, and at worst had difficulty killing all my stuff. IH, or at least repulsors/flier variants? Basically can't kill them or interact with them and much more able to pick my army up. I still dislike the deathstars more- the way the armies were built, and the aesthetics of it, or maybe its because iron hands started rolling "yesterday" and i havent had that many competitive games against them(read as havent been kicked in the teeth that many times by them). In the end the feeling is almost the same- no interaction and you have to be at your peak and your opponent has to roll dice(and not be super super unlucky). |
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Post by bolk on Nov 29, 2019 10:08:56 GMT
Sorry to be the bringer of more doom and gloom but here goes. This is purely a rumour but the guy telling me has been spot on for everything else. Abberants up 3pts Stop signs up 15!!!!!! Acolytes up 1 Rock saws up 5 So thats GSC without demo bikes, aberrants, acolytes then....not sure whats left really. Maybe my 9 ridgerunner joke army is actually the best build now. Jesus Well, saves me money. No point in starting building up my GSC then. |
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. But yeah, most SM list, apart from IH, has cents/aggressors. Which kill ~~50-60 gaunts by themselves. Those that don't are still usually running a bunch of intercessors and stuff like invictors/redemptors, which aren't as good at killing gaunts but still reasonable. And honestly, I'd say 80's probably lowballing it based on some lists I've seen: each flier kills ~15. 3 fliers, say 40. An executioner kills ~20 at 24": 3 fliers+executioner isn't even half the army, and kills ~60-80 with TFC. Take the other 3 fliers, another repulsor exec, some impulsors, relic leviathan, more TFC etc etc. I wouldn't be surprised at a good IH list being able to comfortably kill 100 gaunts T1 (admittedly rough maths without mal, which does do some work on cutting the flier firewpower), and more T2 as other guns/intercessors etc come into range. 
