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Post by Kitane on Nov 14, 2019 18:28:33 GMT
When I was reading today on the competitive 40k subreddit that the Lord Discordant is no longer considered to be competitive in the new SM meta, I was quite surprised.
Our entire MC line is a pale shadow of that monstrosity.
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 15, 2019 2:04:05 GMT
The Lord Discordant was really oppressive against Vehicles, meaning Knights, so they were competitive because they could punch way above their weight. They could also move decently fast, and were a great Carnifex for the other T7 threats on the board.
Cue in SM, with a plthetora of anti-vehicle that isn't a vehicle itself, and a focus on hardier bodies that don't get hit with massive damage (still explodes hits though) and get a save vs the Discordant, and their impact lessens considerably.
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Post by sneggy on Nov 15, 2019 13:50:44 GMT
where? we have a source? that's effing nuts. I feel like that's just sneggy being snarky... mean it'd bring carnifexes roughly into line with talos who can also fly and be shooty whilst combatty.....nuts right? |
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 15, 2019 16:42:07 GMT
IIRC they don't fly anymore but yea. T6 base with 6W? Don't remember how much they cost but it was cheap, our Fex is like 67pts base already though, I don't feel like further making them cheap actually makes them good.
Just quick BScribe check, Talos is 75pts chassis, T6 W7 4+ 5++ Power from Pain. BS4+ ws3+, and all other upgrades are weapons.
On the flip, Fex is 67 for T7 W8 3+, mortal wounds and +1hit on charge. Assuming value of 2 special rules = PfP, I feel like both chassis are valued similarly, or the Fex is slightly better. The Fex is definitely way more shootier with min 12 max 24 shots of S6 versus rapid 3 of Splinter Cannons(or some other super niche gun) while Taloses have access to more melee weapons.
Making the Fex cheaper doesn't make it better. It needs better stacking rules to make it better, just like how Taloses can get +1T and +1invul to be absolute beasts to deal with.
The tyranid army rules stacking ability is noticeably dated in concept, and limited in scope. If you give synapse a revamp to have different effects (either from choice like chaplain, or from the models having unique synapse effects), in addition to our units niche buffs, the Nid army becomes one heck of a beast itself.
Some unit do need rule buffs though. Lictors, Haruspex, Tervigons, all suffer from limited and ineffective roles. Our Crone suffers from lack of tools in its role, and the Harpy needs access to more weapon choices and BS3+ *AND TO BE AN ACTUAL FLIER/FA, not a hybrid* Mawloc kinda... Works I guess, as I dunno how else are we gonna represent its special maw rules, but it really should be allowed to charge on entry. Maleceptor just needs a tad bit of a rules buff to be good (increase range of special ability, cast spells IN ADDITION to special ability), and the Toxicrene is already decent, just needs to be able to hit combat (although I would like an additional stacking -1 to hit aura on him in addition to what he already has). TFex and Exocrene needs weapon beast to trigger even when moving and they will be solid, especially since they move half of tanks anyway (the Exocrene is really sad since its a real death trap, don't move you get great output you move you become trash... At least with shoot twice when move you still get 12 shots so you land 4 or something.)
What else in our line has actual issues? The ones in mind are Gargoyles and Raveners, but that's less of a "role" and "rules" issue and more of a "something does it better" issue.
Pretty much any other issue I'm aware of can be solved with points adjustments.
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Post by mule on Nov 15, 2019 18:18:48 GMT
IIRC they don't fly anymore but yea. T6 base with 6W? Don't remember how much they cost but it was cheap, our Fex is like 67pts base already though, I don't feel like further making them cheap actually makes them good. Just quick BScribe check, Talos is 75pts chassis, T6 W7 4+ 5++ Power from Pain. BS4+ ws3+, and all other upgrades are weapons. On the flip, Fex is 67 for T7 W8 3+, mortal wounds and +1hit on charge. Assuming value of 2 special rules = PfP, I feel like both chassis are valued similarly, or the Fex is slightly better. The Fex is definitely way more shootier with min 12 max 24 shots of S6 versus rapid 3 of Splinter Cannons(or some other super niche gun) while Taloses have access to more melee weapons. Making the Fex cheaper doesn't make it better. It needs better stacking rules to make it better, just like how Taloses can get +1T and +1invul to be absolute beasts to deal with. The tyranid army rules stacking ability is noticeably dated in concept, and limited in scope. If you give synapse a revamp to have different effects (either from choice like chaplain, or from the models having unique synapse effects), in addition to our units niche buffs, the Nid army becomes one heck of a beast itself. Some unit do need rule buffs though. Lictors, Haruspex, Tervigons, all suffer from limited and ineffective roles. Our Crone suffers from lack of tools in its role, and the Harpy needs access to more weapon choices and BS3+ *AND TO BE AN ACTUAL FLIER/FA, not a hybrid* Mawloc kinda... Works I guess, as I dunno how else are we gonna represent its special maw rules, but it really should be allowed to charge on entry. Maleceptor just needs a tad bit of a rules buff to be good (increase range of special ability, cast spells IN ADDITION to special ability), and the Toxicrene is already decent, just needs to be able to hit combat (although I would like an additional stacking -1 to hit aura on him in addition to what he already has). TFex and Exocrene needs weapon beast to trigger even when moving and they will be solid, especially since they move half of tanks anyway (the Exocrene is really sad since its a real death trap, don't move you get great output you move you become trash... At least with shoot twice when move you still get 12 shots so you land 4 or something.) What else in our line has actual issues? The ones in mind are Gargoyles and Raveners, but that's less of a "role" and "rules" issue and more of a "something does it better" issue. Pretty much any other issue I'm aware of can be solved with points adjustments. I think fex are still quite good. Its just the meta where they sit is sort of bad. Making them -1 to hit doesn't matter anymore because armies who get disgusting amounts of rerolls. So thats another 10 points we can just shave off. Putting on just a maw and 4x devourers isnt terrible, and just shoving them up the board. Theyre still really good in combat on the charge. Lots of shooting. |
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 15, 2019 19:41:11 GMT
Making them cheap doesnt make them good individually, no, it makes your list better because you can cram more into it.
Come on, fellas.
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Post by mule on Nov 15, 2019 20:12:03 GMT
Making them cheap doesnt make them good individually, no, it makes your list better because you can cram more into it. Come on, fellas. Yep exactly. if you run 9 cfex a 20 point drop is 10% more things in your list, another 180 points. |
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Post by dotcomee on Nov 15, 2019 20:48:26 GMT
Fact is Tyranids won't get anything better than what Eldar got, and Eldar didn't get much.
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Post by calbanite on Nov 15, 2019 21:08:35 GMT
Even normal SM chapters are getting more (please do not swear) than the CSM legions in Faith and Fury... and it's a book aimed at BT vs Chaos.
inb4 a Primaris Moar'fistin pimp slaps the Swarmlord like a Ripper
Gimme "models can't take invulnerable saves against wounds caused by damage from Boneswords, Monstrous Boneswords, or Bonesabres" PLSSSSSSSS
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 16, 2019 0:25:52 GMT
Making them cheap doesnt make them good individually, no, it makes your list better because you can cram more into it. Come on, fellas. That's a given, but we want the Fex to be better, not just to make better lists... |
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 16, 2019 0:37:09 GMT
I want to play games and have an even chance of winning. I dont really care how they level the field, but there aren't a lot of ways to make our units survive to make contact. Making them cheap means you dont care if you loose half of them T1, you have enough to get the job done.
Increasing their quality would be real nice, and I'd certainly be happy about it, except GW hasn't been real keen to adjust unit stats and there's not a lot you could do to make them more survivable without going into crazy town (like army wide 4+ FNP or whatever ridiculous wish listing we get up to). The SM cat is out of the bag now, and we were having trouble before that.
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Post by miurath on Nov 16, 2019 0:53:02 GMT
Id actually realy like something that mittigates overwatch. Relic, trait or power i do not really mind.
But i understand that that would be pretty bad to balance when i look at the faces of my opponents when i shove that unit of gs over the whole board. But oh well one can dream smal dreams
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Post by kazetanade on Nov 16, 2019 0:58:02 GMT
I think it was just against Knights personally - matt did provide a good list of issue items in the editions, most of which was addressed pretty quick, and outside of that I never faced any HARD difficulty with an army other than triple Knight and Tau. The Grotesque/Talos spam was the next thing I had some difficulty with. The condition was that I played it correctly and played it well though, mistakes were often very painful.
If you meant that extra 180pts allows me to bring something else to make my army work, I just don't see it being as useful if the something else doesn't perform well in the first place. Why not just bring 900 points of something that works well instead of saving that 180pts in reduction? *shrug*
The other MCs could probably be made better with price drops, marginally so. But the CFex is already 67pts...47pts for a T7 W8 chassis? I think only AM have a T6 chassis at that price.
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Post by nod007 on Nov 16, 2019 1:00:48 GMT
I would also like to see swarmlord to be a beast!!! His famous cc weapons bone sabres are not good. I mean both mc rending claws and mc scything talons are better than BONE SABRES!!! Make bone sabres ap-1 or ap-2 against invulnerable saves and ap-4 normally. With this small change to give minus against all saves he becomes the beast he is supposed to be and be feared again!
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 16, 2019 1:10:45 GMT
I think it was just against Knights personally - matt did provide a good list of issue items in the editions, most of which was addressed pretty quick, and outside of that I never faced any HARD difficulty with an army other than triple Knight and Tau. The Grotesque/Talos spam was the next thing I had some difficulty with. The condition was that I played it correctly and played it well though, mistakes were often very painful. If you meant that extra 180pts allows me to bring something else to make my army work, I just don't see it being as useful if the something else doesn't perform well in the first place. Why not just bring 900 points of something that works well instead of saving that 180pts in reduction? *shrug* The other MCs could probably be made better with price drops, marginally so. But the CFex is already 67pts...47pts for a T7 W8 chassis? I think only AM have a T6 chassis at that price. Compare them to centurions or aggressors. Compare the access to buffs, their cost, and their damage output. T7 and W8 doesnt really mean a lot. It's a slow rhino. Our MCs started out on the wrong foot in 8th and they haven't really kept up in the race. MC status isnt supposed to be a debuff. |
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