Fixing Lictors

[v0iddrgn]

So, I was just thinking of some minor changes that would really help Lictors in their role (Character killers). What if they came stock with Toxin Sacs and had an ability that granted a MW on a wound roll of 6+ in the Fight phase against Characters. They could call it 'Assassins of the Swarm'. In addition the Deathleaper's 'It's After Me' ability should be changed to reflect it's old school iteration and maybe turn off the aura abilities of the designated Character if they fail a leadership test which they would take at the beginning of each of their turns. I also believe Grasping Talons could use -2 AP to really make them a threat because Rending Claws would still be a go to against targets that don't have invul. Thoughts?

[timcz]

I def love lictors and would like to use them more - I think they do need something to make them fit the theme of character killers a bit more. I don’t mind your idea of a MW on a 6.

[purestrain]

They won't fix them, the last like three attempts were bigger and bigger failures.

Requires a total revision, redesign and look.

All else is just a waste of time.

[topaxygourouni]

Changes? Make them have 7-8 attacks, 3 damage base and always strike first. They will still underperform.

[1b2a]

I know precisely how to fix lictors. NO OVERWATCH. That's it. And pheremone trail should confer that to other units. I am literally a genius.

[killercroc]

In all reality Lictors only need tiny changes to make them much better, however I doubt they will ever get them. I'm not sure if whoever made the rules for them thought they were good enough or they had no idea what stats would look like in this game but it's clear either way an attempt was made but it was a poor attempt. As they are now they're not assassins, they're just punchy Raveners with glimmer camo and you can take a max of 3, so not very good.

First change, give them the scout deployment as well as deep strike, either way of deployment makes lore sense for the Lictor and setting it up 9" away 10/10 times will be better than deepstrike, with its move it'll get in combat right away, and being forced out of the game for a turn really hurts its damage potential.

Second change, as was stated above just flat out no overwatch. It wouldn't be the only unit in the game to get it and it makes sense that a giant invisible cockroach silently charging from behind would take anything by surprise. How this master of sneak is as easy to shoot at with overwatch and a mob of shouting boyz is silly.

Third change, actually give it weapons capable of killing the things it should kill. Right now the wargear is laughable, it on average can only kill a 4 wound Guard character you're looking at 2-4 turns to kill these new T5 6W 2+ 4++ marine characters. It's the equivalent of taking an anti-tank unit with grenade launchers, yeas it's "possible" for them to kill a tank but it's also possible to roll 100 6's in a row.

Fourth change, bump up the stats. With Marines we've seen GW has no problem giving huge stat bumps for little to no cost, two primaris units got +1 W for no points, the entire army gets +1 A on charge/charged for no points, a lot of their units have Elite+ stat lines for less than 20 points, etc.

So overall my simple change would be make the base Lictor be able to deploy on battlefield, special rule to ignore overwatch, give it BS 2+ as the only guns it has are minor pistols in CC with short range and no special rules they should at least be able to hit with the things! 4 attacks base, give the big talons at least 3 Dmg and give it special rending claws. As it stands there is almost never a time to use the rending over scythes, you change out 2 dmg to 1 for a 1/6 chance to increase your AP. Give it AP -2 rending normally and on a 5+ it's AP -4, something at least to make them worth using against some opponents. The idea being Scythes to take down big opponents, Claws to take down armored opponents.

Hell I'd say leave it at 34 points too, those new marine snipers are dirt cheap and have multiple ammo guns, or can take a S8 AP -3 3 dmg gun for still less points for a Lictor so I say there is no need for a price bump, or if anything up to 40 and no more.

[dan3dim]

Lictors is dead. Dead.
Lictors suit Killteam. That it.
Lictors plastic kits is needed.
Lictors need brand new data sheet for W40K match play.
Lictors won’t get fix for 8th Ed.

[LordPathos]

Inb4 the only update for nids in Psychic Awakening is a Lictor rework. Like how banshees and incubi got a rework.

[Hive Bahamut]

I think it goes into warhammer legends. At least then it can die with the rest of the legacies. Great fluff, terrifying aesthetic, bad rules since I started in 4th.

Red Terror, Lictors (GSC stole their trait and made an army,) maybe even Raveners and Shrikes/Skyslashers. RIP

[bolk]

Oct 17, 2019 13:45:50 GMT killercroc said:

In all reality Lictors only need tiny changes to make them much better, however I doubt they will ever get them. I'm not sure if whoever made the rules for them thought they were good enough or they had no idea what stats would look like in this game but it's clear either way an attempt was made but it was a poor attempt. As they are now they're not assassins, they're just punchy Raveners with glimmer camo and you can take a max of 3, so not very good.

First change, give them the scout deployment as well as deep strike, either way of deployment makes lore sense for the Lictor and setting it up 9" away 10/10 times will be better than deepstrike, with its move it'll get in combat right away, and being forced out of the game for a turn really hurts its damage potential.

Second change, as was stated above just flat out no overwatch. It wouldn't be the only unit in the game to get it and it makes sense that a giant invisible cockroach silently charging from behind would take anything by surprise. How this master of sneak is as easy to shoot at with overwatch and a mob of shouting boyz is silly.

Third change, actually give it weapons capable of killing the things it should kill. Right now the wargear is laughable, it on average can only kill a 4 wound Guard character you're looking at 2-4 turns to kill these new T5 6W 2+ 4++ marine characters. It's the equivalent of taking an anti-tank unit with grenade launchers, yeas it's "possible" for them to kill a tank but it's also possible to roll 100 6's in a row.

Fourth change, bump up the stats. With Marines we've seen GW has no problem giving huge stat bumps for little to no cost, two primaris units got +1 W for no points, the entire army gets +1 A on charge/charged for no points, a lot of their units have Elite+ stat lines for less than 20 points, etc.

So overall my simple change would be make the base Lictor be able to deploy on battlefield, special rule to ignore overwatch, give it BS 2+ as the only guns it has are minor pistols in CC with short range and no special rules they should at least be able to hit with the things! 4 attacks base, give the big talons at least 3 Dmg and give it special rending claws. As it stands there is almost never a time to use the rending over scythes, you change out 2 dmg to 1 for a 1/6 chance to increase your AP. Give it AP -2 rending normally and on a 5+ it's AP -4, something at least to make them worth using against some opponents. The idea being Scythes to take down big opponents, Claws to take down armored opponents.

Hell I'd say leave it at 34 points too, those new marine snipers are dirt cheap and have multiple ammo guns, or can take a S8 AP -3 3 dmg gun for still less points for a Lictor so I say there is no need for a price bump, or if anything up to 40 and no more.

I agree, but it should also have a way to deal mortal wounds in melee. Like on a 5+ to wound for example. Characters usually have a 4++ now, if a Lictor is ever going to kill a character reliably it needs something more.

[v0iddrgn]

That's why I advocate for toxin sacs and a rule to deal MW's to Characters on 6+ wound rolls. Just those 2 changes would open the lictors up to do their job even with their mediocre melee weapons. I agree that lictors need to turn off Overwatch even if it's just on the turn they DS. Maybe have them DS D6+3" away from enemy models. These changes are the bare minimum to make these guys viable.

[c4790m]

We’re forgetting lictors are cheap as chips. I’d argue no overwatch would be more than enough to make them insta-takes without a points increase. Even without any DS buffs or infiltrate, I’d happily pay the 25(?) points a lictor costs to shut off overwatch.

[No One]

And then the unit has a role in the army that has nothing to do with it's thematic role, and still doesn't have great options for making it into combat and using any part of its kit.

[c4790m]

I agree that it’s not ideal. If I was rebuilding from the ground up I’d make them 90pts with a broodlords statline (sans psyker and synapse) and get to move d6 when deepstriking

[purestrain]

Oct 20, 2019 13:40:37 GMT c4790m said:

I agree that it’s not ideal. If I was rebuilding from the ground up I’d make them 90pts with a broodlords statline (sans psyker and synapse) and get to move d6 when deepstriking

The sanctus fills that almost entirely by himself, but has a much greater effect against heavier infantry thanks to always wounding on a 2+ with 4a+1 from the dagger, becomes a murderous (please do not swear) if you give him the dagger of swift sacrifice, as the ap-2 brings any cap in any gear to its invuln (unless SS or I think cataphracti?) And being 2d each of those 5 2+ wounding attacks is good but even if they survive they still take another d3 mortal wounds, almost certain to do well more than a lictor ever could.