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Post by classified1 on Sept 23, 2019 11:46:07 GMT
I have had a great time playing my Nids. I have a pretty high win rate (about 75%) in my local meta.
However the game starts to be similar. Slingshot GS with Swarmy, double shoot HG, well position my Malan. I throw in a other viable units from time to time but not really willing to go full fluff and just play bad units and completely change the game dynamic.
Sometimes I wish I could be as lazy as a Knight triple or have better toughness/armour to not fear of being shot from the table in one round.
If I wanted to mix up my lists going GSC is the easiest. But is it the right move?
I am looking at Chaos with hungry eyes. So many options and not as lame as standard AM.
I am planning to include a Vanguard detachment with a Patriarch, Locus, Sanctus and Kelermorph and see how I like it.
How is playing GSC similar to Nids?
For example Nids seems rather intricate sometimes. The bubbles, the buffs you need to succeed can be daunting. I heard GSC is even more intense. So many rules to know and apply that playing well is very demanding.
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Sept 23, 2019 15:43:54 GMT
Nids= Hammer that you smash things with
GSC= Scalpel that you cutout things with
Both play very differently, and Nids are much more forgiving. That being said they both have meh Monsters/tanks (arguably worst in 40k) but Nids benefit from adding GSC more than the other way.
There are others that can comment further, I am a GSC fanboy so am biased.
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Post by 1b2a on Sept 23, 2019 17:48:45 GMT
You can drop a knight with GSC troops easily. Do it. And they can't complain because they're playing knightst.
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Post by kazetanade on Sept 23, 2019 19:00:26 GMT
they'll complain about how cheap our Knight dropping units are, no running away from people whining.
I played almost exclusively GSC for the first 8 months of this year, undergoing and adapting to 2 meta changes in relatively short peeriods of time. The thing about GSC is that a well built GSC list never goes "WELP that army counters me ggwp" from the getgo. You have enough tools and options to make viable plays, and enough ways to make those tools work, and almost enough resources to make use of your options.
If I wanted to describe it in another way (maybe RTS players will get it), Nids are playing the Macro game - GSC is playing the Micro game.
GSC is less forgiving than Nids in that for Nids you can play a slow game - Kraken stealers can sit and wait for an opportunity as long as the Hive Guard keep shooting. Hive Guard continue to do work after your Genestealer smashes their heads open, so failure can be recovered from. GSC cannot recover from big failures, and small failures makes things a fair bit harder than they need to be. But when the plan comes together, you can ask the enemy to re-rack, because you can remove their ability to come back or even play the game.
Due to the inherent problems of Deep Strike restrictions, a huge GSC army that deepstrikes (which is how almost everything good wants to be used) cant be played, so you have to figure out how to balance the board with things you cant or dont put into reserves - this is a complication that Nids dont have.
At the same time, you can also drop 3 units of 20 (total of 60) to get a triple 7" rerollable charge that will basically decimate an entire flank on its own (or should with appropriate buffs, YMMV), or can be used to surgically squirm into corners to tag things otherwise blocked out.
You could opt instead to use the initial units as a gatecrasher, bringin 20 guys down with handflamers to wreck most of the chaff infantry that he's using to keep his big tanks safe, then having the remaining 40 guys charge in right behind.
You could opt for Abberants also, for a less disposable but much more powerful scalpel-hammer that can remove most anything that it will get into combat with.
With Nids, the only buff you really think about is Synapse - most units work without their respective buffmanders, just apply them into the right place. In Gsc armies, messing up the buffmander(sssss) placement is the difference between running over the enemy or the enemy running over you. Messing up which buffs will make the difference between the dead enemy or your dead unit.
GSC is NOT lazy. If you want to be like the Knights, play the new Ironhand SM or the 12 Vehicle Chaos lists, which are really thick stat block lists that will do really well on most levels until you hit high competitive.
A Vanguard is a little different - it uses most of the things that high competitive GSC lists dont care about, creating a lot of utility to accompany your Nids list rather than being a contributing force in its own right. So for example the Kellermorph and the Sanctus are missing in a lot of lists (because the performance is really iffy a lot of the time), and the Locus doesnt really do anything. In a GSC list my relic is used up by the Crouchling or the Icon, which are both very key relics that makes these lists work, so the Sanctus and the Kellermorph are almost never going to be good at their jobs (they need their respective relics to do really well at it). So for EG bringing the Patriarch gives you ofc some hitting power, a Psyker ability (for some really good spells or just Telepathic Summons access), the Sanctus is your anti-psyker guy, and the Kellermorph takes out support characters on the drop and disrupt the enemy plans. But none of these are actually making or breaking your list, which needs to be fundementally sound before having these things anyway.
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Post by wound on Sept 23, 2019 19:44:43 GMT
I have been experimenting with GSC heavy list lately as i used them as a suport for tyranids, could you post some of your lists kazetanade? im unsure whether i go aberrants or acolythes i have been liking the bikes a lot though
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Post by classified1 on Sept 23, 2019 21:25:48 GMT
Thank for input so far.
I don't think going full GSC is probably not the way to go.
However talking about an effective Nids detachments I have read various proposals. I also have the models to run a Magus, Iconward, Patriarch Supreme Command Detachment.
As I am very new to GSC I would appreciate being specific on the Cult Creed, Relic and Warlord trait recommendations.
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Post by kazetanade on Sept 24, 2019 18:19:00 GMT
I have been experimenting with GSC heavy list lately as i used them as a suport for tyranids, could you post some of your lists kazetanade? im unsure whether i go aberrants or acolythes i have been liking the bikes a lot though My lists are on the Army Lists thread - the condensed version is both Abberants and Acolytes, using separate sets of buffs so that I can do two flanks at once without facing placement difficulties. Both flanks are also reliable charges, allowing you to get what needs doing done at the same time and reinforcing the MTO concept of GSC. I've tried variations of mix GSC/Nids lists which work, but I like GSC more than Nids as an aesthetic thing so I wanted to get good with it. Original concepts of my GSC lists used 60 Acolytes as the base, trying to reach 120 of them with BB to hold ground and sprinkle on objectives. The Acolytes worked but it was pretty razor thin - the Abberants build gave me a bit more leeway because they could get something done on the drop, force the enemy to engage them in combat to deal with them, and take the enemy down with them with Fight When Die- always good trades. The Acolytes needed to make their good trade on the drop and was extremely placement sensitive, while Abbys with Fight Twice are both less placement sensitive and also capable of dishing out way more than Acolytes (thereby competing with Acolytes in terms of points/damage/tanky ratios, purely off points and not cp use). The bikes theoretically are good, but have been a disappointment for me every game I had them. the 5d6 is so swingy, with d3 damage thereafter - one bad roll on the d6s throws everything out the window. I always find myself wanting to use the cp on something else, since they cant get enough done for me on the drop, and when I do spend the 4cp, they dont do their jobs. As a less talked about note, Bladed Cog Neophytes have been one of my all-stars when paired with a Jackal Alphus and a Patty that lets them reroll wounds vs a specific target. Drop them behind the Acolytes/ Aberrants, pick out 1 tank target to kill or some big unit to kill, and let the 3+ to hit rr wounds takeover. I have used Lasguns and Webbers to kill off most of a max Aggressor squad with this drop, and they consistently kill the Disco Lord Warlord from the 13 Daemonforge Engine lists while having leftover shots to plink off at another Discolord. Rough list: FAE Batt Primus, Iconward, Magus 1x 15 Acolytes + Saws, 1 x 18 Acolytes with Flamers, 1x 10BB Bladed Cog Batt Jackal, Patty 4 x 10 Neophytes + 2 Mining Lasers + 2 Webbers each Twisted Helix Batt Patty, Primus, Iconward 3 x 10 BB 2 x 10 Pickerrants with Stop Sign |
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Post by turner430 on Sept 24, 2019 19:01:49 GMT
Second on bladed cog Neophytes with a Alphus. Love me some mining lasers moving and shooting with no penalty. And the 6++ coupled with a 6+++ with a iconward plus the D6 back strat helps keep them in the game.
Bladed cog abbies are so much fun as well. If you can multi charge a few imperial units with pick claw and improvised you are laughing. Especially with an abominant.
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Post by gorsameth on Sept 24, 2019 19:47:37 GMT
I have been experimenting with GSC heavy list lately as i used them as a suport for tyranids, could you post some of your lists kazetanade? im unsure whether i go aberrants or acolythes i have been liking the bikes a lot though My lists are on the Army Lists thread - the condensed version is both Abberants and Acolytes, using separate sets of buffs so that I can do two flanks at once without facing placement difficulties. Both flanks are also reliable charges, allowing you to get what needs doing done at the same time and reinforcing the MTO concept of GSC. I've tried variations of mix GSC/Nids lists which work, but I like GSC more than Nids as an aesthetic thing so I wanted to get good with it. Original concepts of my GSC lists used 60 Acolytes as the base, trying to reach 120 of them with BB to hold ground and sprinkle on objectives. The Acolytes worked but it was pretty razor thin - the Abberants build gave me a bit more leeway because they could get something done on the drop, force the enemy to engage them in combat to deal with them, and take the enemy down with them with Fight When Die- always good trades. The Acolytes needed to make their good trade on the drop and was extremely placement sensitive, while Abbys with Fight Twice are both less placement sensitive and also capable of dishing out way more than Acolytes (thereby competing with Acolytes in terms of points/damage/tanky ratios, purely off points and not cp use). The bikes theoretically are good, but have been a disappointment for me every game I had them. the 5d6 is so swingy, with d3 damage thereafter - one bad roll on the d6s throws everything out the window. I always find myself wanting to use the cp on something else, since they cant get enough done for me on the drop, and when I do spend the 4cp, they dont do their jobs. As a less talked about note, Bladed Cog Neophytes have been one of my all-stars when paired with a Jackal Alphus and a Patty that lets them reroll wounds vs a specific target. Drop them behind the Acolytes/ Aberrants, pick out 1 tank target to kill or some big unit to kill, and let the 3+ to hit rr wounds takeover. I have used Lasguns and Webbers to kill off most of a max Aggressor squad with this drop, and they consistently kill the Disco Lord Warlord from the 13 Daemonforge Engine lists while having leftover shots to plink off at another Discolord. Rough list: FAE Batt Primus, Iconward, Magus 1x 15 Acolytes + Saws, 1 x 18 Acolytes with Flamers, 1x 10BB Bladed Cog Batt Jackal, Patty 4 x 10 Neophytes + 2 Mining Lasers + 2 Webbers each Twisted Helix Batt Patty, Primus, Iconward 3 x 10 BB 2 x 10 Pickerrants with Stop Sign Have you tried Democharges on your Flamer squad? Its a less effective then Bikes obviously but its a minimal extra investment (25 points + 1CP) for something your already doing anyway. Also I have wondered, why the 4th Neophyte squad over the minimal 3. Is to be reach an average damage theshold to reliably kill things like a standard tank? |
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Post by kazetanade on Sept 25, 2019 1:35:40 GMT
I haven't done democharges on the Flamers - I have thought about it and considered that without the Alphus or the RC strategem, the output is not effective for something I need to spend points on for niche situations. Most situation those demo charges are going to plink a few wounds off something, for a unti that's coming down to burn infantry - most cases I've seen is you don't have access to the vehicles AND the screen at the same time, so it becomes a 1 or the other scenario. These few points together leads me to the conclusion I should focus on better melee placement to kill those tanks rather than trying to use the demo charges on the Acos, because if a 5 bike squad ain't reaching it/doing it, an Aco squad in shooting ain't doing it either.
As for the Neophyte, when you roll 2,2,2,2 in a row for the Mining Lasers, you'll wish you had the leeway. You're actually suppose to have 5 in total there, but I had to cut points to make the FAE work.
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Sept 26, 2019 20:57:02 GMT
I'm running 4 neophyte laser squads as well, all bladed cog. Theyre rock stars with the alphus.
As for me I'm running as it's the number of neophyte squads I have and I also need enough to fill out two battalions.
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Post by wound on Sept 27, 2019 16:35:45 GMT
Rough list: FAE Batt Primus, Iconward, Magus 1x 15 Acolytes + Saws, 1 x 18 Acolytes with Flamers, 1x 10BB Bladed Cog Batt Jackal, Patty 4 x 10 Neophytes + 2 Mining Lasers + 2 Webbers each Twisted Helix Batt Patty, Primus, Iconward 3 x 10 BB 2 x 10 Pickerrants with Stop Sign Damn i guess i will need to double my acolytes, that said thanks for answering, would a outrider of bikes be viable at all? |
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Post by 1b2a on Sept 27, 2019 16:46:43 GMT
Rough list: FAE Batt Primus, Iconward, Magus 1x 15 Acolytes + Saws, 1 x 18 Acolytes with Flamers, 1x 10BB Bladed Cog Batt Jackal, Patty 4 x 10 Neophytes + 2 Mining Lasers + 2 Webbers each Twisted Helix Batt Patty, Primus, Iconward 3 x 10 BB 2 x 10 Pickerrants with Stop Sign Damn i guess i will need to double my acolytes, that said thanks for answering, would a outrider of bikes be viable at all? A bunch of people run bikes, but they're really good with a buttload of CP tossed in, on a single unit. |
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Post by kazetanade on Sept 27, 2019 20:40:43 GMT
3 x 5 units of demobikes might be a bit too much. I would run 1 at most just for very key "I need to kill this thing" plays, but I dont like the random 5d6 shots that could screw me over horribly. 2x5 is probably the max you should be running.
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Post by gorsameth on Sept 27, 2019 21:14:27 GMT
Rough list: FAE Batt Primus, Iconward, Magus 1x 15 Acolytes + Saws, 1 x 18 Acolytes with Flamers, 1x 10BB Bladed Cog Batt Jackal, Patty 4 x 10 Neophytes + 2 Mining Lasers + 2 Webbers each Twisted Helix Batt Patty, Primus, Iconward 3 x 10 BB 2 x 10 Pickerrants with Stop Sign Damn i guess i will need to double my acolytes, that said thanks for answering, would a outrider of bikes be viable at all? Frankie (from FLG) took a bike heavy list to the London GT Battalion Detachment 5CP (Genestealer Gult) [ 63pl, 939pts ] Rusted Claw: +HQ+ Jackal Alphus [4pl, 70pts ] Jackal sniper rifle, autopistol, and blasting charges Patriarch [8pl, 137pts ] Warlord, Mounstrous rending claws, 1x The Crouchling +Troop+ Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3pl, 40pts ] x9, Brood Brothers Leader, Las Pistol, Lasgun, Frag grenades Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3pl, 40pts ] x9, Brood Brothers Leader, Las Pistol, Lasgun, Frag grenades Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3pl, 40pts ] x9, Brood Brothers Leader, Las Pistol, Lasgun, Frag grenades +Elite+ Kelermorph [3pl, 60pts ] Liberator autostubs, cultist knife +Fast Attack+ Atalan Jackals [13pl, 174pts ]x12, Atalan Wolfquad x2, Mining laser x2, Shotgun, Atalan Leader, Cultist Knife Atalan Jackals [13pl, 179pts ]x10, Atalan Wolfquad x2, Mining laser x2, Shotgun, Atalan Leader, Cultist Knife, Demolition Charge x5 Atalan Jackals [13pl, 199pts ]x12, Atalan Wolfquad x2, Mining laser x2, Shotgun, Atalan Leader, Cultist Knife, Demolition Charge x5 Battalion Detachment 5CP (Genestealer Gult) [ 20pl, 318pts ] Rusted Claw: +HQ+ Acolyte Iconward [3pl, 53pts ] Autopistol, rending claw, blasting charges Patriarch [8pl, 137pts ] Mounstrous rending claws, 1x Familiar +Troop+ Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3pl, 40pts ] x9, Brood Brothers Leader, Las Pistol, Lasgun, Frag grenades Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3pl, 40pts ] x9, Brood Brothers Leader, Las Pistol, Lasgun, Frag grenades Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3pl, 40pts ] x11, Brood Brothers Leader, Las Pistol, Lasgun, Frag grenades Battalion Detachment 5CP (Genestealer Gult) [ 38pl, 743pts ] Four-Armed Emperor: Vigilis Defiant :Deliverance Broodsurge +HQ+ Acolyte Iconward [3pl, 53pts ] Autopistol, rending claw, blasting charges Primus [4pl, 75pts ] Needle Pistol, bonesword, toxin injector claw, blasting charges +Troop+ Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3pl, 40pts ] x9, Brood Brothers Leader, Las Pistol, Lasgun, Frag grenades Acolyte Hybrids [11pl, 230pts ] x19, Acolyte Leader, autopistol, cultist knife, rending claw, blasting charges, cult icon, heavy rock saw x8 Acolyte Hybrids [11pl, 230pts ] x19, Acolyte Leader, autopistol, cultist knife, rending claw, blasting charges, cult icon, heavy rock saw x8 +Elite+ Kelermorph [3pl, 60pts ] Liberator autostubs, cultist knife |
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