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Post by Inquisitor Stingray on Feb 1, 2019 2:39:26 GMT
Hey Hive, I hope you are well!
So, I recently got back into Warhammer - and into painting! I've stripped down a lot of models, as I was not happy with my color scheme. After agonizing over a new one, I've picked out the colors and started painting. I'm using Citadel paints and I've been painting 90% of an Exocrine. I was never a good painter, but I'm trying out new techniques (like actually thinning my paints, heh), but I've encountered a number of disheartening issues.
First off, the paint seems to come of rather easily. By that I mean a finger nail is able to peel some of it off. I never had this issue in the past (having used Citadel and Army Painter paint earlier). I mean sure, paint can always come off, but this seems different. I've tried painting over different undercoast - Citadel's own Corax White (not a true primer, but an 'undercoat' nevertheless), as well as a very smooth Primer from Army Painter. Regardless, I find the paint comes off very easily, dries up incredibly fast, and is no where near as easy to handle as the good Duncan of Warhammer TV fame would have it look.
I've been using a lot of shades as well, though I've had some issues where they would dry with a gloss finish sometimes, for no discernible reason.
The model itself, especially after having used shades just feels kind of... dirty, like the texture of the paint is clearly uneven, even if I've tried thinning it down.
At this point I'm pretty disheartened, having put in a significant amount of hours in the hopes of being able to replicate that painting experience you see on (Warhammer) TV. I've ordered a few Army Painter paints in similar to colors to contrast and compare, to see if their finish is smoother and the paint easier to work with. Was hoping to keep things Citadel-exclusive, though that's just my dumb IP-OCD talking.
Not really sure what I'm looking for here. Just venting a bit, and curious if you guys have had similar experience - and any advice to share. Thanks!
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Post by tomb on Feb 1, 2019 10:23:02 GMT
Prime with a good primer, citadel sprays are fine, I use darker colours personally either The Fang, Mechanicus Standard or a combination of black and white. Black from below white from above, or a mix of all of these. White primer can be chalky and sometimes the army painter primers may furr up or splatter.
Check the humidity before you prime, it needs to be dry, moisture in the air will 'fur up' the primer and this will not adhere to the model correctly making paint easily brush off. Look for a moderate heat day not to hot or cold. I always shake my cans and leave in a mild warm water for a few minutes to help. Then shake well. Spray from a good distance and don't overspray.
Always shake washes well before use, they can become shiny if the compounds are not mixed well. To avoid or cover the shine wash mix a little wash with lamian medium added, the medium is clear paint and will give a matt finish.
Finally you can use a varnish to finish the model, be careful and follow the above advise for spray cans but TEST spray varnish before spraying the model, sometimes it will 'frost up', this is more likely to happen after either too much is applied or it is sprayed for too long, but it can happen on first spray too. Or just buy GW matt (or gloss varnish - ard coat).
Also be sure to wash your models well in soapy water after stripping them!
I hope this helps.
Edited for sooo many spellos.
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Feb 1, 2019 12:35:12 GMT
I use krylons primers per a friend's recommendation. I haven't seen paint chipping since switching to that primer.
Another tip on avoiding fuzzing on your primer is to clear out the nozzle of the can by spraying it upside down for a few seconds before starting.
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Post by Inquisitor Stingray on Feb 1, 2019 23:57:18 GMT
Thanks for the advice! When the paint chips, it chips down to the primer/spray paint. Even so, I perhaps did not properly wash the models after stripping them down (that is, I wished them, but not with soap) and I'm wondering if that may have caused some kind of chemical imbalance. I'm learning a lot of things and I guess the greater the ambition (ie, actually wanting to proper techniques), the greater the capacity for failure. Will take some adjustment and experimentation. Maybe I'll start a blog here sometime!
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Post by hivefleetkerrigan on Feb 2, 2019 1:28:02 GMT
Thanks for the advice! When the paint chips, it chips down to the primer/spray paint. Even so, I perhaps did not properly wash the models after stripping them down (that is, I wished them, but not with soap) and I'm wondering if that may have caused some kind of chemical imbalance. I'm learning a lot of things and I guess the greater the ambition (ie, actually wanting to proper techniques), the greater the capacity for failure. Will take some adjustment and experimentation. Maybe I'll start a blog here sometime! Mine chips in the exact same way with bad primer and I haven't stripped any models. I can't recall chipping since I switched. Krylon is good stuff and about $5 a can or so, compared to 20 for gw. For the other models please post how the varnish goes. I'm also eyeing gw hard coat and will let you know if it goes ok.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 6, 2019 14:30:25 GMT
Thanks for the advice! When the paint chips, it chips down to the primer/spray paint. Even so, I perhaps did not properly wash the models after stripping them down (that is, I wished them, but not with soap) and I'm wondering if that may have caused some kind of chemical imbalance. I'm learning a lot of things and I guess the greater the ambition (ie, actually wanting to proper techniques), the greater the capacity for failure. Will take some adjustment and experimentation. Maybe I'll start a blog here sometime! This was my first thought when I read your post. Simple green and brake fluid all leave a nasty residue. I prefer Formula 88 automotive degreaser with very little left behind. It breaks down paint really well without damaging resin or plastic models (of course metal are fine as well). Then it's a HOT water bath with scrub with a toothbrush. I finish each model by dipping in diluted rubbing alcohol (I keep it about 45%-50%) which evaporates any residual moisture/film. This gives a great base that I've never had a problem with.
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Post by Zod42 on Feb 6, 2019 17:28:08 GMT
Thanks for the advice! When the paint chips, it chips down to the primer/spray paint. Even so, I perhaps did not properly wash the models after stripping them down (that is, I wished them, but not with soap) and I'm wondering if that may have caused some kind of chemical imbalance. I'm learning a lot of things and I guess the greater the ambition (ie, actually wanting to proper techniques), the greater the capacity for failure. Will take some adjustment and experimentation. Maybe I'll start a blog here sometime! This was my first thought when I read your post. Simple green and brake fluid all leave a nasty residue. I prefer Formula 88 automotive degreaser with very little left behind. It breaks down paint really well without damaging resin or plastic models (of course metal are fine as well). Then it's a HOT water bath with scrub with a toothbrush. I finish each model by dipping in diluted rubbing alcohol (I keep it about 45%-50%) which evaporates any residual moisture/film. This gives a great base that I've never had a problem with. I'd never heard of Formula 88. Thanks mattblowers
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 6, 2019 20:21:17 GMT
This was my first thought when I read your post. Simple green and brake fluid all leave a nasty residue. I prefer Formula 88 automotive degreaser with very little left behind. It breaks down paint really well without damaging resin or plastic models (of course metal are fine as well). Then it's a HOT water bath with scrub with a toothbrush. I finish each model by dipping in diluted rubbing alcohol (I keep it about 45%-50%) which evaporates any residual moisture/film. This gives a great base that I've never had a problem with. I'd never heard of Formula 88. Thanks mattblowersIt's less expensive too, but it burns pretty good when you get it on your bare skin.
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Post by Inquisitor Stingray on Feb 6, 2019 20:42:46 GMT
Thanks for the advice! When the paint chips, it chips down to the primer/spray paint. Even so, I perhaps did not properly wash the models after stripping them down (that is, I wished them, but not with soap) and I'm wondering if that may have caused some kind of chemical imbalance. I'm learning a lot of things and I guess the greater the ambition (ie, actually wanting to proper techniques), the greater the capacity for failure. Will take some adjustment and experimentation. Maybe I'll start a blog here sometime! This was my first thought when I read your post. Simple green and brake fluid all leave a nasty residue. I prefer Formula 88 automotive degreaser with very little left behind. It breaks down paint really well without damaging resin or plastic models (of course metal are fine as well). Then it's a HOT water bath with scrub with a toothbrush. I finish each model by dipping in diluted rubbing alcohol (I keep it about 45%-50%) which evaporates any residual moisture/film. This gives a great base that I've never had a problem with. Thanks Matt, I think I may have to shower my Nids thoroughly next time around. Incidentally, however, rubbing alcohol is what I used to remove the paint! So that may not have been the problem, hm.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 6, 2019 20:59:42 GMT
Thanks Matt, I think I may have to shower my Nids thoroughly next time around. Incidentally, however, rubbing alcohol is what I used to remove the paint! So that may not have been the problem, hm. Rubbing alcohol is only to remove any residual degreaser as it bonds with it and evaporates it off. Alcohol by itself will only remove the paint pigment but leaves a residue behind from the acrylic. This residue will be extremely fragile (since it's been dried out from the alcohol) and is why the new paint comes off so easily. I drop in the degreaser for 3-7 days depending on the thickness. If it doesn't come off easily, it needs more time to soak. It breaks down the paint and pigment comes off in the degreaser and the acrylic base is dissolved. It even strips off most primers, but petroleum-based aerosols often stain the plastic. This won't matter once it's been scrubbed and dried though. Degreaser. Scrub with a tooth brush. Rinse with HOT water. Rinse in alcohol. If you skip any of the steps you can have issues.
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Post by Inquisitor Stingray on Feb 8, 2019 12:17:24 GMT
Thanks Matt, I think I may have to shower my Nids thoroughly next time around. Incidentally, however, rubbing alcohol is what I used to remove the paint! So that may not have been the problem, hm. Rubbing alcohol is only to remove any residual degreaser as it bonds with it and evaporates it off. Alcohol by itself will only remove the paint pigment but leaves a residue behind from the acrylic. This residue will be extremely fragile (since it's been dried out from the alcohol) and is why the new paint comes off so easily. I drop in the degreaser for 3-7 days depending on the thickness. If it doesn't come off easily, it needs more time to soak. It breaks down the paint and pigment comes off in the degreaser and the acrylic base is dissolved. It even strips off most primers, but petroleum-based aerosols often stain the plastic. This won't matter once it's been scrubbed and dried though. Degreaser. Scrub with a tooth brush. Rinse with HOT water. Rinse in alcohol. If you skip any of the steps you can have issues. (please do not swear), I should have paid more attention in chemistry class. So assuming I don't have access to degreaser and have already soaked and rinsed my models in alcohol, what would you recommend doing to clean the model (of chemical residue, not paint)? Thanks.
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Post by mattblowers on Feb 8, 2019 12:27:35 GMT
Rubbing alcohol is only to remove any residual degreaser as it bonds with it and evaporates it off. Alcohol by itself will only remove the paint pigment but leaves a residue behind from the acrylic. This residue will be extremely fragile (since it's been dried out from the alcohol) and is why the new paint comes off so easily. I drop in the degreaser for 3-7 days depending on the thickness. If it doesn't come off easily, it needs more time to soak. It breaks down the paint and pigment comes off in the degreaser and the acrylic base is dissolved. It even strips off most primers, but petroleum-based aerosols often stain the plastic. This won't matter once it's been scrubbed and dried though. Degreaser. Scrub with a tooth brush. Rinse with HOT water. Rinse in alcohol. If you skip any of the steps you can have issues. (please do not swear), I should have paid more attention in chemistry class. So assuming I don't have access to degreaser and have already soaked and rinsed my models in alcohol, what would you recommend doing to clean the model (of chemical residue, not paint)? Thanks. You'll need to soak in something. Can you get simple green? If not, a high concentration of soapy water and leave for a good soak. Ammonia works pretty well too, but I can't stand the smell of the stuff and it will eat the skin off your hands. After a good soak, you will need to give it a good scrub with an old tooth brush. Best of luck.
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Post by bolk on Feb 8, 2019 20:51:38 GMT
Rubbing alcohol is only to remove any residual degreaser as it bonds with it and evaporates it off. Alcohol by itself will only remove the paint pigment but leaves a residue behind from the acrylic. This residue will be extremely fragile (since it's been dried out from the alcohol) and is why the new paint comes off so easily. I drop in the degreaser for 3-7 days depending on the thickness. If it doesn't come off easily, it needs more time to soak. It breaks down the paint and pigment comes off in the degreaser and the acrylic base is dissolved. It even strips off most primers, but petroleum-based aerosols often stain the plastic. This won't matter once it's been scrubbed and dried though. Degreaser. Scrub with a tooth brush. Rinse with HOT water. Rinse in alcohol. If you skip any of the steps you can have issues. (please do not swear), I should have paid more attention in chemistry class. So assuming I don't have access to degreaser and have already soaked and rinsed my models in alcohol, what would you recommend doing to clean the model (of chemical residue, not paint)? Thanks. You're Danish, right? Simple Green/Grønnsåpe we get in Scandinavia is too strong for plastic, as my friend experienced with his Drop Pod, which turned into goo. I use Rødsprit for 24 hours and then scrub them with an old toothbrush or the like.
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Post by Inquisitor Stingray on Feb 10, 2019 21:13:12 GMT
(please do not swear), I should have paid more attention in chemistry class. So assuming I don't have access to degreaser and have already soaked and rinsed my models in alcohol, what would you recommend doing to clean the model (of chemical residue, not paint)? Thanks. You're Danish, right? Simple Green/Grønnsåpe we get in Scandinavia is too strong for plastic, as my friend experienced with his Drop Pod, which turned into goo. I use Rødsprit for 24 hours and then scrub them with an old toothbrush or the like. I am! Googling rødsprit, it appears to be the equivalent to 'husholdningssprit' (rubbing alcohol?), which is what I used. I am going to have to clean the models in warm soapy water afterwards, and hope for better luck. What do you do with your models, after scrubbing? Thanks! One thing I don't get, though: the primer is very strong and does not come off at all, yet the paint does. It would make more sense to me if the primer itself didn't not adhere. How can it possibly bind, yet the stuff that gets painted on top of it is somehow affected?
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Post by bolk on Feb 10, 2019 23:25:24 GMT
You're Danish, right? Simple Green/Grønnsåpe we get in Scandinavia is too strong for plastic, as my friend experienced with his Drop Pod, which turned into goo. I use Rødsprit for 24 hours and then scrub them with an old toothbrush or the like. I am! Googling rødsprit, it appears to be the equivalent to 'husholdningssprit' (rubbing alcohol?), which is what I used. I am going to have to clean the models in warm soapy water afterwards, and hope for better luck. What do you do with your models, after scrubbing? Thanks! One thing I don't get, though: the primer is very strong and does not come off at all, yet the paint does. It would make more sense to me if the primer itself didn't not adhere. How can it possibly bind, yet the stuff that gets painted on top of it is somehow affected? I only flush them very well with water afterwards so I'm sure there's no Rødsprit left on them. I haven't stripped models I have painted myself yet, so I'm not sure how Rødsprit works on Citadel or Armypainter primer, but I haven't gotten the primer of the models I've stripped so far either. But that might be because the primer is supposed to glue on to the outer layer of plastic to give proper adherence.
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