Ork Shenanigans

[autoxidation]

Looking through the new Ork codex, the Evil Sunz stratagem looks... Really good.

Drive-by Krumpin' 1 CP: Use this stratagem at the end of the shooting phase. Select an Evil Sunz Speed Freeks unit from your army. That unit can immediately make a move as if it were the movement phase, but cannot charge this turn.

It doesn't specify at the end of your shooting phase... So you could hide a unit behind terrain, wait until the end of the enemy's shooting phase, and then move the unit, putting them in perfect spot to move, advance/shoot, and charge in your following turn.

[Iryan]

The silliest shenanigans that have been pointed out to me, and which I am pretty sure will somehow be negated by the FAQ/errata within 2 weeks:

Ork meganobz and some ork characters have a 2+ armor save. Being infantry, they are eligible for the Loot It! stratagem, which lets you buff their armor save to a 1+ when a vehicle dies close to them.

Why is this bad? Well, a 1+ save is peculiar because of the following things:

1. AP modifies the result of the armor save roll, not the save characteristic.

2. The result of the roll cannot be modified below 1.

3. Only unmodified results of 1 are a guaranteed fail, not results that are modified to equal 1.

This means if you attack a 1+ Sv model with a weapon that has even AP-6, rolls of 2 or more might be modified down to 1, but they would not be unmodified ones. And since 1 is still equal to the save characteristic, the save would be successful. Effectively, a 1+ armor save is a 2++ invuln save!

So unless GW changes something with the FAQ/errata within 2 weeks, you can give meganobz, or character in mega-armor, a 2++, just by having them close to a vehicle that is destroyed. 

[cypheon]

Looked through brb and its faq... where do you see "a die roll can never be less than 1" ?

I know it was brought up in a codex faq regarding plasma and hit modifiers, but i can't remember which one...

Edit: found it, designer commentary. Wish they would read their own 400 pages of rules rewrites before they publish each codex...

[kazetanade]

Nov 3, 2018 16:49:04 GMT Iryan said:

The silliest shenanigans that have been pointed out to me, and which I am pretty sure will somehow be negated by the FAQ/errata within 2 weeks:

Ork meganobz and some ork characters have a 2+ armor save. Being infantry, they are eligible for the Loot It! stratagem, which lets you buff their armor save to a 1+ when a vehicle dies close to them.

Why is this bad? Well, a 1+ save is peculiar because of the following things:

1. AP modifies the result of the armor save roll, not the save characteristic.

2. The result of the roll cannot be modified below 1.

3. Only unmodified results of 1 are a guaranteed fail, not results that are modified to equal 1.

This means if you attack a 1+ Sv model with a weapon that has even AP-6, rolls of 2 or more might be modified down to 1, but they would not be unmodified ones. And since 1 is still equal to the save characteristic, the save would be successful. Effectively, a 1+ armor save is a 2++ invuln save!

So unless GW changes something with the FAQ/errata within 2 weeks, you can give meganobz, or character in mega-armor, a 2++, just by having them close to a vehicle that is destroyed. 

I have this distinct feeling that you've been had, my friend.

You do realise that modifiers to ap all take place at the same time? So there's no way to lock your sv to 1++ all the time, at any time.

A 2+ sv gets cover to a 1+ sv(effectively means squat, because a sv roll of 1 is still a fail, even with modifiers), then a -1ap brings it to a 2+ sv, while a -4ap brings it to a 5+ sv.

[cypheon]

It only states that unmodified rolks of 1 auto fail. If you roll a 6, then ap down to one, that is still within the 1+ save.

Cover is different because it is a modifier to the roll, not the stat itself.

[No One]

kazetanade said:

A 2+ sv gets cover to a 1+ sv(effectively means squat, because a sv roll of 1 is still a fail, even with modifiers), then a -1ap brings it to a 2+ sv, while a -4ap brings it to a 5+ sv.

I think he's actually correct? Since the stratagem isn't a modifier to the armour save roll, which is what cover does, but actually a change to the save characteristic.

Iryan said:

but they would not be unmodified ones

This is the bit I'm not sure about:

A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply.

My gut read was that it meant 'results of 1, including those without modifiers', but I think that just 'rolls of 1 when ignoring modifiers' is more correct.

[vejby]

They can do some serious shooting. Two units of bad moon lootas, 10 and 15 members, respectively. Mob them up to one unit with stratagem, use strat to make dakkadakka kick in on rolls of 5 and 6, shoot twice with another stratagem. That is 150 shoots at S7, ap -1 Dam 2, always hiiting on 5+. 5 CP later and one dead knight. Costly, but efficient.

[mattblowers]

Nov 3, 2018 16:49:04 GMT Iryan said:

The silliest shenanigans that have been pointed out to me, and which I am pretty sure will somehow be negated by the FAQ/errata within 2 weeks:

Ork meganobz and some ork characters have a 2+ armor save. Being infantry, they are eligible for the Loot It! stratagem, which lets you buff their armor save to a 1+ when a vehicle dies close to them.

Why is this bad? Well, a 1+ save is peculiar because of the following things:

1. AP modifies the result of the armor save roll, not the save characteristic.

2. The result of the roll cannot be modified below 1.

3. Only unmodified results of 1 are a guaranteed fail, not results that are modified to equal 1.

This means if you attack a 1+ Sv model with a weapon that has even AP-6, rolls of 2 or more might be modified down to 1, but they would not be unmodified ones. And since 1 is still equal to the save characteristic, the save would be successful. Effectively, a 1+ armor save is a 2++ invuln save!

So unless GW changes something with the FAQ/errata within 2 weeks, you can give meganobz, or character in mega-armor, a 2++, just by having them close to a vehicle that is destroyed. 

No.

1st of all, stop it. GW rules are not meant to be taken to this level of scrutiny.

2nd. You have it exactly backwards. The rule does not say "unmodified rolls of 1", it states "a roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers." That's the starting point, if your roll a 1 you fail. It doesn't matter if an ability adds to the armour save characteristic or to the saving throw, it's simple order of operations with addition and subtraction.

1. Make roll.
2. Make any eligible rerolls.
3. Do the addition and subtraction.
4. Is result of 3 = or > armour save? If yes then 5, if no then 6
5. Is the result of 1/2 = 1? If yes then 6, if no then 7
6. Saving throw is failed. End.
7. Saving throw is made. End.

Let's use your scenario. Armour save characteristic of 2+ from looted strategem. AP value of -6 on a weapon.

1. Roll a dice. You roll a 4.
2. No rerolls.
3. 4 - 6 = -2
4. -2 < 1
5. NA
6. Saving throw is failed.

Whether or not the saving throw is an umodified 1 or not has absolutely no bearing on the order of operations unless you passed a saving throw and that saving throw was a one. Follow the steps just like you'd have to write an order of operations for a BASIC computer program and the confusion goes away.

[tomcaet]

Nov 7, 2018 13:21:42 GMT mattblowers said:

No.

Or is it?

It isn't an inv as things specifically ignoring invs don't affect this, but otherwise it works very much like one. Interpreting the rolls modified to 1 as always failing too would work, but was ruled against in Drukhari FAQ:

Q: If a Succubus is given the Serpentin combat drug, does
its Weapon Skill characteristic increase to 1+? If so, does the
Succubus still hit if a hit roll of 2 is rolled for an attack for a
melee weapon and, due to an ability, I have to subtract 1 from
that hit roll?
A: Yes, and yes – only unmodified hit rolls of 1
automatically fail.

It's going to need an Errata, most probably on the Stratagem, either limiting the save to a 2+ at best or improving the rolls for the rest of the battle instead of the characteristic. Or we'll have scrap-superpowered Meganobz.

[mattblowers]

Nov 7, 2018 14:04:18 GMT tomcaet said:

Nov 7, 2018 13:21:42 GMT mattblowers said:

No.

Or is it?

It isn't an inv as things specifically ignoring invs don't affect this, but otherwise it works very much like one. Interpreting the rolls modified to 1 as always failing too would work, but was ruled against in Drukhari FAQ:

Q: If a Succubus is given the Serpentin combat drug, does
its Weapon Skill characteristic increase to 1+? If so, does the
Succubus still hit if a hit roll of 2 is rolled for an attack for a
melee weapon and, due to an ability, I have to subtract 1 from
that hit roll?
A: Yes, and yes – only unmodified hit rolls of 1
automatically fail.

It's going to need an Errata, most probably on the Stratagem, either limiting the save to a 2+ at best or improving the rolls for the rest of the battle instead of the characteristic. Or we'll have scrap-superpowered Meganobz.

Reread my full answer. Don't confuse auto-fails with fails. Negative numbers can happen in math, which everyone is forgetting in this situation. The only characteristics that cannot be modified below a 1 are Strength, Toughness, and Leadership. Page 175 BRB, left sidebar.

[No One]

mattblowers said:

2nd. You have it exactly backwards. The rule does not say "unmodified rolls of 1", it states "a roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers." That's the starting point, if your roll a 1 you fail.

As an additional point to the above (which provides clear precedence that I missed that this is the intended reading): that's not what irrespective means. It means without taking something into account. If you don't take into account modifiers...that 2 your rolled is still a 2. It only becomes a 1 if you don't ignore modifiers, counter to the rules.

(Your point 1 has some merit, but that's no excuse for GW not fixing their rules, and...well, from the GW FAQ team: "Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has.").

Edit:

4. -2 < 1

Negative numbers can happen in math, which everyone is forgetting in this situation.

But can't happen with modifiers...give me a moment. Found it:

Designers Commentary said:

Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?
A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.

Why this exists, I'm not sure: I don't think it breaks anything. But apparently GW ignores the existence of all numbers <1 *shrug*.

[mattblowers]

Nov 7, 2018 14:16:56 GMT No One said:

Q: Can a dice roll ever be modified to less than 1?
A: No. If, after all modifiers have been applied, a dice roll would be less than 1, count that result as a 1.Why this exists, I'm not sure. But apparently GW ignores the existence of all number <1 *shrug*.

Well then, forget everything I said. So a 1+ save is exactly the same as a 2+ invul, actually better since it can't be null zoned or death hexed.

[Iryan]

Yeah, it is pretty silly. I am pretty sure the Loot it! Stratagem will be errata'd to improve armor save only to a maximum of 2+, preventing the issue from coming up. Of course, the most reasonable thing would be to alter the rules interactions so that a 1+ is no longer a 2++ with benefits, but I do not expect that to happen any time soon, haha.

[tomcaet]

Ignoring results below 1 has a nice effect of proofing the rules against all of them. We don't need a "1 or below" clause everywhere, or some kind of "1-" notation. The "roll of 1 always fails" and "no upper limit" regarding D6 results seem pretty core to 8th edition.

Weird it's only Strength, Toughness and Leadership characteristics that are limited. WS, BS and Save could use a 2+ limit even more because of this special treatment of ones. Or, maybe more appropriately, should only ever be modified on the roll, never on the characteristic.

[mattblowers]

Expect an errata ASAP. 1+ meganobs are going to be the bane of 40K until they get this straightened out. Can orks get a re-roll saves of 1? If so, then 2++ rerolling is back. Ork deathstars will be a thing. Throw a painboy nearby and you won't ever kill them.