|
|
Post by nidzy on Jun 14, 2018 0:09:08 GMT
Hi all,
I have owned 3 imperial knights for several years, now referred to as "questoris" knights. I have them built as a Crusader, a Paladin and a Errant with the Errant and Paladin swappable. I always fantasized about running 3 Gallants in a game but I never had the bits as only one of my knight kits included the gauntlet and I didn't build it. This list would require some conversions and surgery to make playable.
With that said, I want to make this CC list work competitively. All of the scary output of this list is CC. I would appreciate any feedback from folks familiar with Knights from playing them or from playing against them. I included the guard element because I want CP in this list badly to get extra relics and traits and scoring is crucial. The guard will be played by neophyte hybrids and other GSC model guardsman and eventually I want to model a GSC knight. First I have to work on my Nurgle's Rot infected freeblade but that is another post...
Anyway, This list is geared toward making 3 gallants and 4 armigers a (please do not swear) problem for my opponent. Someone is getting punched in the face. I chose house Terryn for the mobility and am open to switching, but my one fully painted knight (the others are only primed white and metallic) most closely matches Terryn and it is a style of play suited to this list so I went with it. I also own 4 warglaives, so please don't tell me Helverns are better as feedback on this list. I know they are better but I didn't buy those, did I, Mr. Hindsight McHindsightPants? I bought the shiny new mini knights cheap from the box set that were overcosted at the time but still sweet to look at. Eventually I will have the arms to swap between options. Also: I apologize for that little rant there.
Both questoris and warglaive are pretty accomplished screen killers in CC in this book, but obviously they shine at killing big stuff as well. The guard detachment is geared toward killing infantry and scoring. I tried to focus on survive-ability with the knights rather than output because with the boost to Gallants, getting them there is more important that extra output IMO. I am using 6 CP pre game to add relics and WL traits to 2 Gallants. Unfortunately, to get the full benefit of the guard CP-farm the WL has to be in that detachment. Ideally I would have a WL trait and relic on all knights. I will try the list with only 5 CP for the game, but I think I need more to make it work.
Terryn Knight Lance
Knight Gallant: heavy stubber; WL: Landstrider(+2 to move and advance), Relic: Sanctuary(2+ armor)
Knight Gallant: heavy stubber; WL: Ion Bulwark, Relic: Ravager(special chainsword to reroll 1's to hit which is great with the gallant's 2+ WS)
Knight Gallant: heavy stubber
2x Warglaive heavy stubber
2x Warglaive heavy stubber
Imperial Guard Battalion (I don't know enough about it to pick a guard style yet. I am still digesting that book)
Commander: WL grand strategist
Commander: Kurov's Aquila
3x10 infantry
3x3 mortar teams
|
|
|
|
Post by acehilator on Jun 15, 2018 15:09:13 GMT
Even for a "for the lolz" list I feel that three Gallants are a waste. One is pretty much an autopick, two might be workable, three are definitely too much. Default relic for a Gallant should be Paragon Gauntlet, to use in conjunction with Death Grip stratagem.
Same with the Warglaives, they are pretty bad too. Without the ability to Fall Back + shoot and/or Fall Back + Charge, Armigers are just XL Dreadnoughts, and the Warglaive's Thermal Lance is not an impressive weapon, shame that it is not S9. And even with the new "Sweep" ability Warglaives are prone to getting tarpitted, only going to kill like four models per fight phase. Helverins can use their awesome range to make themselves hard targets.
Put the Aquila on the WL Commander, change the other Commander to a Primaris Psyker.
Ditch the Mortar teams imho, sure the firepower is somewhat nice against infantry, but not sure if it is worth it adding three drops to your deployment, you want the +1 for the roll-off.
|
|
|
|
Post by nidzy on Jun 15, 2018 17:14:36 GMT
Thanks for the feedback! I haven't got a chance to play this list, but my gut still tells me you are wrong about spamming the gallants. It might just be that I can't let go of the idea  I had missed that the paragon gauntlet drops the -1 to hit, thanks for that catch! This makes it a lot better with death grip. The reason I didn't have Kurov's on the same commander as grand strategist is that it seemed like it would be easy for any kind of sniper to just kill him and take away my whole CP farm. Splitting them up at least forces choices. I like the idea of the psyker though as this list lacks any kind of psychic defense. I am going to play this list against deathguard this week. I will update with how it goes. |
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Jun 15, 2018 18:51:11 GMT
Keep us posted.
|
|
|
|
Post by nidzy on Jun 17, 2018 3:47:32 GMT
My buddy and I had a fun casual game:
He ran Deathguard with Morty, 3 PBC, a soulgrinder and some nurglings along with 7 plague marines in a landraider. It wasn't the most competitive look but it was a great first match up because it was a lot of stuff that can punch at knights.
I varied from the list above and mixed the traits up some:
Gallant: Paragon gauntlet
Gallant: Sanctuary, Landstrider
Valiant: 2 cannons, 1 set missiles, Ion bulwark
3 warglaives
guard battalion
commander Kurov's aquila, grand strategist
psyker
3x10 infantry
A mini batrep: We played Ascension which is a CA total war mission with 3 objectives (characters hold and objectives are worth more the longer a character holds them. We had the long table edge chevron shaped deployment. I rolled a 6 to advance going first for a 20 inch move with the Paragon knight. For those keeping score at home, I rolled 2 d6 to advance getting a 2 and a 6 for and 18" move plus 2 for starting the moving within 6" of the Landstrider warlord. I failed to kill a squad of nurglings in shooting. I foolishly went first in CC with a warglaive into nurglings, so he got to interrupt and hit the knight first with the soulgrinder but failed to degrade him, taking him to 13 wounds instead. With no invul he just took these but the paragon gauntlet hit 5 times, wounded 3 times and 2 went through to kill the soulgrinder.
The game could have been over on turn 1 or 2 but he maneuvered with Morty on t1 and made an 11 inch charge which allowed him to kill both Gallants in turn 2. If he had got just 1 I would have overran him on turn 2. He basically killed the Paragon guy with mortal wounds from the grenade trick as I overextended him toward that unit (jubilant from my 20" move) and holy hell, they really can brutalize something. This gallant blew up and wounded Morty 5?!?! times, and Morty took several more wounds from seigebreaker and warglaive shooting to drop to 8.
In Turn 2 all my plans failed. Epically, I rolled a hit with the Thundercoil Harpoon against the landraider only to roll a 1 to wound and another 1 with a command reroll. This would have one shotted the landraider who took 6 wounds from an armiger that same turn. I killed 5 plague marines(who died to morale) with the flamer cannon and got morty down to 5 wounds with all the rest of my shooting and then failed to wound him after wounding 6 times with warglaives ((please do not swear)). However, my opponent failed to degrade the valiant with his shooting and morty killed the two warglaives.
In turn three, the valiant did what I wanted him to do on turn 2. He one shotted the landraider with the thundercoil, which blew up hurting stuff around him and then killed morty with the rest of his shooting. My opponent killed the valiant in rebuttal. At this point since I went first I was outscoring him in ascension points by 5-0. I scored 2 more in 4 and he conceded after he wasn't able to kill my guard infantry off of 2 of the objectives and my last warglaive was still alive to harass PBC in the backfield.
Takeaways: The warglaives are suspect but I am still optimistic, they get ignored when there are 2 gallants rolling forward. They were able to do work for 2-3 turns and I was linebreaking with one at the end of the game.
Paragon gauntlet is dope. Killing something with the thundercoil harpoon was everything I dreamed it would be, especially a landraider. The valiant overall really went well with the rest of the list because he wasn't the scary thing in front and then for 2 turns he was in his kill zone of 12"-18" and made stuff happen before crapping out.
This list isn't super competitive, I think a good DE or Tau or Gully list would eat it alive. However, I think knights in general will be strong but not OP. I am going to run 3 varied questoris, probably gallant, Errant and Crusader with the try-hard guard and warglaives to fill out points in my next game and switch up the points.
I think I need to put Ion Bulwark on a questoris model because that 3++ comes very cheap on them. I only had 2 CP by the time I wanted to use that stratagem on the Valiant.
Finally, this was my first game with the CP farm. It made me feel so good and so dirty at the same time. I started the game with 11 CP, dropped to 5 with pre-game stratagems and ran out on turn 3 after spending 10+ CP on stratagems. I mentioned not having 3 cp for the valiant, but I used those last 2 CP on 4 command rerolls. The guard were well worth it and I didn't miss the mortar teams at all in this game (though I might have been different vs an infantry heavy list).
|
|
|
|
Post by nidzy on Jul 3, 2018 17:01:20 GMT
I am still writing lists for knights and trying to decide which dominus variant to run. In this list I switched to house Raven in an attempt to try out some different relics and buff up my firepower. I want to see how well the guard can keep scoring against a nastier shooting look than I have faced thus far. The idea is to try out bait out agents of vect earlier rather than later using rotate ion shields on one of the questoris. Then I can potentially make use of the advance and charge on the gallant.
Knight Lance House Raven
Castellan: 2 siegebreaker/2 missile, Caul's wrath WL: Ion Bulwark
Crusader: RFBC, Endless Fury, twin icarus autocannon
Gallant: thunderstrike/chainsword, WL: Landstrider
2 Armiger Helevern
Try hard guard from above:
Commander: grand strategist, kurovs
psyker
3x10 infantry
|
|
|
|
Post by nidzy on Jul 4, 2018 16:03:35 GMT
Bat rep: agents of vect is bad for 40k.
He had 15 cp to start this game and they ran out just in time for him to kill a second knight in a second turn effectively securing victory.
The combination of agents of vect with the doom/jinx from his Eldar detachment really game me a hard time. He also rolled like a boss on 5s to wound and I never got better than a 5++ on a knight.
|
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Jul 5, 2018 14:25:45 GMT
Bat rep: agents of vect is bad for 40k. He had 15 cp to start this game and they ran out just in time for him to kill a second knight in a second turn effectively securing victory. The combination of agents of vect with the doom/jinx from his Eldar detachment really game me a hard time. He also rolled like a boss on 5s to wound and I never got better than a 5++ on a knight. I said it on another thread, you shouldn't be able to use strategems from allied detachments. That would stop a lot of this nonsense. Learn to play your codex. Bring in allies for support, not for cheese combos. |
|
|
|
Post by nidzy on Jul 8, 2018 16:21:40 GMT
Bat rep: agents of vect is bad for 40k. He had 15 cp to start this game and they ran out just in time for him to kill a second knight in a second turn effectively securing victory. The combination of agents of vect with the doom/jinx from his Eldar detachment really game me a hard time. He also rolled like a boss on 5s to wound and I never got better than a 5++ on a knight. I said it on another thread, you shouldn't be able to use strategems from allied detachments. That would stop a lot of this nonsense. Learn to play your codex. Bring in allies for support, not for cheese combos. To be fair, he is a DE player and that was his primary detachment. The eldar component was a battalion with a farseer, 3x5 rangers and a warlock. It was in for psychic support. However, he did have a detachment specifically to get that stratagem as he usually plays obsidian rose. |
|
|
|
Post by nidzy on Jul 30, 2018 22:40:45 GMT
I did a few updates to this list to try to get back to the core of what I wanted when I conceived of it in the first place. I think if I want double gallant, the Castellan is the ticket. I am sticking to Warglaives because I can't afford both a Castellan and the Helverins right away.
Raven with landstrider seems brutal on the Warglaives. Their move becomes 16" and they ignore the penalty for advancing and shooting melta. Seems like a good gotcha to make up for missing out on "sally forth." The guard screen off the Castellan while the 2 gallants follow the Warglaives up the field. I think Taranis might work even better, keeping dudes alive until they get stuck into the enemy and I will play test it but I am sticking with Raven for now. Terryn is my other house of choice but it missed out on the beautiful and brutal Caul's wrath.
House Raven Knight Lance:
Castellan: 2 siegbraker/2shieldbreaker, Caul's Wrath, Ion Bulwark
Gallant: Paragon Gauntlet/Reaper, HS
Gallant: Landstrider
3 Armiger Warglaives: HS
AM Battalion: Catachan
Company Commander: Kurovs/Grand strategist
Primaris psyker
3x10 infantry squads
|
|
|
|
Post by nidzy on Feb 14, 2019 2:12:03 GMT
I am bringing this (please do not swear) back! Is it really a necro if it never got off the first page?
Okay guys, none of these lists worked out and I just kept trudging along with nids. After my brutal buttf...shellacking at the LVO this year I decided to revisit my knight choices. The Castellan is dead to me, ignore whatever I said about it above. If anyone mentions it in this thread, you too shall be crossed from the list of the people alive to me. The guard are going to be played by GSC neophytes/brood brothers, and ultimately I will have a questoris knight converted to GSC as well. I am thinking a GSC pilot and then aberrants chained to the model sort of dragging it forward. Anyway...Any thoughts on this one?
This list has 70 guard models and 3 knights with a baseline 4++. The goal is to make the styrix and atropos enough of a problem that the crusader keeps shooting while the guard get a chance to score.
Knight lance: I want this to be Terryn but most likely Taranis for the boost to survive-ability
Cerastus Knight Atropos
Questoris Knight Styrix-landstrider
Crusader: battle cannon, Endless fury, ironstorm MP, Ion bulwark
Catachan Batt:
CC: WL GS
CC: kurovs
3x10 infantry
Catachan batt:
CC
primaris psyker (it is a magus...)
3x10 infantry
2x3 mortar teams
|
|
|
|
Post by nidzy on Apr 12, 2019 17:46:51 GMT
I actually think I finally got this list where I want it to be. It is extremely soupy but it is competitive and is something I will be taking to a major or two this year with the goal of a winning record.
The Atropos is a true beast and exists to be shoved down your opponents throat at the right time. With Landstrider he is a legit turn one threat, but for a turn 2-3 threat knight seneschal makes sure whatever needs to die, dies. The Headsman's Mark Crusader is the bane of knights. He prob won't one turn a 3++ knight but if he doesn't die that (please do not swear) is gone in two turns. The guard exist to score and remove screens. The bikes are guaranteed recon and they have a scary anti infantry output. The libby looks for a chance to null zone and smite.
The list can be a bummer without a CP farm, but I bring 10 CP after pre game upgrades and if I can save 2-3 of them into turn 3 I find I have probably won. Krast trait makes both knights a legit melee threat, especially with their stratagem.
Knight Lance: House Krast
Knight Crusader: Battle cannon, gatling cannon, ironstorm MP, ion bulwark, headsman's mark.
Cerastus Knight Atropos-WL (landstrider or knight seneschal)
Armiger Helverin
Cadian Battalion:
3 company commanders
6x10 infantry
3x3 mortar teams
Space Marines: Raven Guard Outrider
Librarian on a bike: axe, boltgun
3x3 SM Bikes: sarge with storm bolter
|
|
|
|
Post by mattblowers on Apr 18, 2019 14:01:40 GMT
I actually think I finally got this list where I want it to be. It is extremely soupy but it is competitive and is something I will be taking to a major or two this year with the goal of a winning record. Keep the deets coming in. Funny how much the list has changed from the original "I want to run 3 Gallants!!" phase. Hard skewed lists don't work as well in this edition as in editions past. Break a leg! |
|
|
|
Post by nidzy on Apr 19, 2019 17:23:32 GMT
I actually think I finally got this list where I want it to be. It is extremely soupy but it is competitive and is something I will be taking to a major or two this year with the goal of a winning record. Keep the deets coming in. Funny how much the list has changed from the original "I want to run 3 Gallants!!" phase. Hard skewed lists don't work as well in this edition as in editions past. Break a leg! Yeah it has really evolved. Part of it is that I realized how quickly a knight dies without a 3++ or 4++. The realization that I could work on painting for all 3/4 armies I own at the same time was the kicker in this lists evolution though. I now have a respectable brood brothers core for gsc/nids, my 9 year old marine bikes have paint on them for the first time, and the warglaives I assembled and primed the week the kit came out found new life as a painted armiger. It truly has been an uprising generations in the making. My project before the fall majors I am attending is going to be to build a GSC knight conversion to replace the Crusader I am running. I have this whole idea in my head but I am not quite sure I have the technical skills to pull it off. We will see what happens. |
|
|
|
Post by nidzy on Apr 28, 2019 20:44:53 GMT
I won a local RTT (only 8 players this time) with this list.
Game 1: Pure Knights (Raven) With a Castellan, Valiant, Crusader and 2 warglaives. ITC Champ's mission #1 with the bonus to hold/contest 5 objectives. This game was actually closer than I thought it was going to be for an objective based mission. He was able to kingslayer and titan slayer which helped his cause. He made me have to kill the valiant first by putting it front and center. I did that in 2 turns and he didn't kill a knight until turn 2 which was the atropos so I got 2 more turns of shooting with the Crusader which helped me chew through his Crusader and then bottom profile the Castellan before dying which ultimately won me the game as my remaining infantry were able to keep scoring the last couple of turns and he had no CP left for rerolls. Won 25-24.
Game 2: Mission #2 vs Blood Angels. His list was 3 battalions with 2 smash captains, 2 primaris captain and lemartes along with a libby, a bunch of scouts and some intercessors along with the new anti deepstrike primaris, some of the sniper primaris, a big squad of death company and some aggressors. He was up on scoring until turn 3, at the end of which he had only primaris snipers and characters left with me having maxed secondaries at the end of 4. He killed the Atropos in turn 2 but only after I killed the smashiest captain on the swing back in turn 1 after it took about 22 wounds off the Atropos. The second (slightly less smashy) captain died on the kickback as well after he failed to kill the crusader in turn 3. Krast is dope. We agreed he should have tried to clean up the bikes instead of jump at the crusader and score/deny points as he only could have killed the Crusader with fight twice for which he lacked the CP.
Game 3: Mission #3 Nexus Control Tau Sept. Double storm surge, longstrike and 2 hammer heads, stealth suits accompanied by marker drones and some fire warriors. I thought game 3 was over on t1 when he killed my Crusader before I went since I had picked Titan Slayer and felt I wasn't going to get more than a point or two in it. I failed miserably with 3++ rolls and he killed the Crusader with just surges. However, he only got one markerlight hit on turn 2 vs the Atropos and he profiled it but didn't kill it. This let me act at top profile, advance the Atropos (moved 22 inches!) and then use the full tilt strat to charge into the surges netting a couple of titan slayer points. He failed to kill it again on turn 3 as my 3++ rolling kicked back around to average and one of the surges was bottom profile now. His list didn't have enough firepower to focus down my infantry/bikes while dealing with the knight and he couldn't get the +1 to wound strat off more than once so by the time the Atropos died on turn 4 I had maxed recon, somehow come up with 3 pts of titan slayer. I failed to kill any of the surges with the Atropos but cumulatively he took off 24 wounds between them with shooting/fighting and I killed one finally with heroic bolter shooting from a squad of bikes to strip the last two wounds. It then blew up which put me within 2 wounds of maxing titan slayer when it did 4 on the other but I couldn't get it done. The bikes also snagged the bonus twice and between that and always holding more objectives I was able to pull out a 2 pt victory.
I won the blackstone fortress box which is pretty sweet. This was also my first ever tourney win so I felt pretty good about it all in all.
One more RTT in May and then a Major in June. I think there might be some minor edits to the list but I am largely satisfied in how it behaved against these lists. Mostly I am just focusing on upping the standard of my paint job and theme and getting practice against different opponents.
|
|
