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Post by hiveminded on Jun 21, 2018 22:14:36 GMT
For the price of those six biovores, you can add 25 genestealers, 6 hiveguard, Swarmy, or 3 dakkafexes to your list.
That's a pretty big opportunity cost in a general TAC list. Just need to ask yourself whether those six biovores are the optimum build for your list. For me, they are not.
Now, if you're tailoring for knights, that is a different matter...
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Post by hiveminded on Jun 21, 2018 22:30:13 GMT
One other option...
I've recently added a Magus back into my list. Mass hypnosis and smite are excellent in a TAC list. Plan against knights will be to use mind control.
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Jun 21, 2018 23:57:52 GMT
What is the best defensive stats they can produce? I haven't looked too far into their book still.
3++ T8 that ignores 1/2/3 to wound? Any FNP mechanic in there?
Very early in 8th destroyed a Knight with Mines. I don't think that is a thing though. Not for a TAC.
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Post by mule on Jun 22, 2018 1:07:31 GMT
What is the best defensive stats they can produce? I haven't looked too far into their book still. 3++ T8 that ignores 1/2/3 to wound? Any FNP mechanic in there? Very early in 8th destroyed a Knight with Mines. I don't think that is a thing though. Not for a TAC. There's a stratagem that costs 2 that you roll a d6 and on a 4+ your knight comes back with d3 wounds at the end of the phase. Basically means you just killed the knight, and it didn't explode it stands back up they spend another 1 CP to have it act at the highest profile and then have it blasts your stuff, and then charges your unit. They can continue to do this until they no longer have CP, fail that roll or the knight blows up. Then when you kill it again, they spend the other 2 CP to have it blow up and deal 1d6 mortal wounds to everything in 2d6" range. The fact that they have access to a battalion for something stupid like 200 through guard means they shouldn't really be CP starved in the slightest. IIRC they do have a FNP stratagem/relic as well but I could be wrong, i'll have to take another look. |
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Jun 22, 2018 2:58:13 GMT
Imperial players: GSC IS SO BROKEN WITH MILITARUM.
Same player: OH by the way I have 3 T8 unkillable vehicles backed by 50 infantry. And Robouté is leading them all. Fluff: nailed it.
I would have to say unfortunately for some they brought Knight fighting back. Just.. Not what we expected.
That crunchy stratagem looks bonkers. Is there anything that can actually survive against it in our army? I feel like Knights promote armies that have ++, because they are not short on AP.
Are we back to the 7th edition answer of ignoring things/Flyrants? From what I have seen Knights, Crons and certain Tau/AM lists have that answer.
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Post by mule on Jun 22, 2018 3:56:26 GMT
Imperial players: GSC IS SO BROKEN WITH MILITARUM. Same player: OH by the way I have 3 T8 unkillable vehicles backed by 50 infantry. And Robouté is leading them all. Fluff: nailed it. I would have to say unfortunately for some they brought Knight fighting back. Just.. Not what we expected. That crunchy stratagem looks bonkers. Is there anything that can actually survive against it in our army? I feel like Knights promote armies that have ++, because they are not short on AP. Are we back to the 7th edition answer of ignoring things/Flyrants? From what I have seen Knights, Crons and certain Tau/AM lists have that answer. Honestly, if they're taking a knight it'll either be 1 or 3. I think 3 is too many and 1 isn't that scary, it'll still take a lot for us to kill them but they're not unkillable in the slightest. On average I believe Hiveguard are dealing 6 wounds a turn with SMA, they'll unlikely have other good targets to shoot at with them anyways, so your hiveguard alone are taking them out on turn 4, which is 1/4 of the point cost, because you're really talking about a 600 point model. (Assuming you're dumping SMA into them every turn.) This doesn't include smites from your flyrants, RC attacks, caustic blood, or psychic scream. Which is just things that I 100% assume you're using. Yes you're going to lose models to them, but really 600 points means they only have 1400 points to play with for the rest of their list. If they take some of the baby knights they're much more manageable and makes it even tougher for them to score. I mean if the past few tournaments were any indication of the way tyranids play currently its 7 flyrants. Now 3 Flyrants seems to be the base of what people are playing. Incontrol did a codex review for them which I found helpful. We've for sure got a harder time dealing with them, but we've got ways of winning the game without dealing with them, which is what I'll be favoring. |
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Post by killercroc on Jun 22, 2018 5:06:51 GMT
I looked at it and Hive Guard with Shock cannons are a good counter to knights. 6 of them coming out to 234 points versus most Knights what... 415 +/- depending on weapons. When you factor in MW caused plus damage getting though and using the strat to fire twice these are an effective counter to them. 6 guard will average of 12 shots, 8 hits, causing MW on a 4+ most likely 1 will be a 6 averaging out 5 MW, 3 actual wounds Knight getting a 4+ save getting 1-2 wounds doing another average 2/4 damage we're looking at about 5 mortal wounds and 3 wounds getting though so 8 damage total. Point per point you get 10 Shockguard per knight. And when you look at the knight with double battlecannon on average 7 shots, 5 hits, 3 wounds killing 1-2 guard in retaliation.
Granted having that many Shockguard will be a problem due to availability. I myself still only have 3 Impalerguard and have yet to get any more which I really should.
Sorry if all this was said before just thought about it on a different forum and thought I'd share here for all others to see.
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Post by autoxidation on Jun 22, 2018 5:14:59 GMT
I looked at it and Hive Guard with Shock cannons are a good counter to knights. 6 of them coming out to 234 points versus most Knights what... 415 +/- depending on weapons. When you factor in MW caused plus damage getting though and using the strat to fire twice these are an effective counter to them. 6 guard will average of 12 shots, 8 hits, causing MW on a 4+ most likely 1 will be a 6 averaging out 5 MW, 3 actual wounds Knight getting a 4+ save getting 1-2 wounds doing another average 2/4 damage we're looking at about 5 mortal wounds and 3 wounds getting though so 8 damage total. Point per point you get 10 Shockguard per knight. And when you look at the knight with double battlecannon on average 7 shots, 5 hits, 3 wounds killing 1-2 guard in retaliation. Granted having that many Shockguard will be a problem due to availability. I myself still only have 3 Impalerguard and have yet to get any more which I really should. Sorry if all this was said before just thought about it on a different forum and thought I'd share here for all others to see. I briefly talked about it on the first couple of pages, but in general they are our best shooting option. They do pale in comparison to our best melee options, which are stonecrusher carnifexes and old one eye (who, with some stratagems, can almost single handedly kill a knight in one round). |
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 22, 2018 5:30:53 GMT
As long as the Knight isnt a lancer. Does Valiants have ++ in cc?
I think outscoring Knights will depend on tournament scoring systems. ETC with a mix of KP, Obj Sit, Maelstrom, may have a chance if you get good cards, but i think Knights have the easier time of it. Still relatively close.
ITC Knights will probably rule supreme if they can get a running start and the terrain isnt ideal. Other lists should have a good fighting chance if the terrain is ideal. In fact, since Knights cant move through buildings i think ITC ideal terrain will impede Knights victory. (Unfortunately my ITC events here are expected to have mostly no LOS Block/Two ruins a side and very open midfields. Go figure.)
Rulebook or pure Maelstrom? Its a pretty uphill battle.
Vs 3 Knights i think we should aim to kill at least 1 ASAP; the weakness of big models is not that you outscore them (thats an army design malfunction), its that every loss hurts a LOT, so if we had things that could trade upwards we would easily win that match up.
Considering that, i think OOE may become a mandatory choice to deal with them, assuming he doesnt die to Overwatch. He trades upwards extremely well, as do Abberants (although the combo costs as much as a Knight in total). Relying on Impalers was ok against other vehicle armies because we could 1:tie them up 2:focus the dangerous ones to our list, but Knights are dangerous in both phases to both profiles so relying on HG which barely scratch them will be tough.
If you want to go for the ignore, you'll always fighting for the early burst and hanging on til the end. Ita viable but... can you get to top tables like that? If I'm going to think seriously about how to deal with it and everything else, I'd want a strategy that gets to top tables.
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Post by mynameisjeff on Jun 22, 2018 7:01:15 GMT
Will there be many knight lists at the top tables dude?. Or is this theory crafting just in anticipation for it?.
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 22, 2018 7:26:21 GMT
Will there be many knight lists at the top tables dude?. Or is this theory crafting just in anticipation for it?. For me its real; every imperial player suddenly has a Knight or 3 in his list now. If they're as powerful as i think they are, a few will make it into my top tables. The only thing is *ARE* they as powerful as i think they are? |
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Post by acehilator on Jun 22, 2018 12:38:51 GMT
There is no way a House Raven list would not be viable for top level play. Roughly like this:
Superheavy Detachment/Knight Lance - House Raven (treat Heavy weapons as Assault when using Advance, fire Assault weapons without penalty)
Valiant (Exalted Court, WL trait Ion Bulwark, 4++)
Crusader
Gallant (Exalted Court, WL trait Landstrider, 6" bubble +2 Advance/Charge, relic: Paragon Gauntlet)
Armiger Helverin
Imperial Guard Batallion Detachment - Regimental Doctrine Vostroyan or Tallarn
Company Commander (WL, WL trait Grand Strategist, relic: Kurov's Aquila)
Primaris Psyker
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Infantry Squad
Gryphonne-Pattern Chimera
Did not list everything regarding loadout, the units are not running stock. Seven drops should guarantee the +1. Maybe don't use a Valiant if you expect many Nid players, Mind Control on that thing has pretty insane potential.
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Post by mattblowers on Jun 22, 2018 12:44:23 GMT
Will there be many knight lists at the top tables dude?. Or is this theory crafting just in anticipation for it?. For me its real; every imperial player suddenly has a Knight or 3 in his list now. If they're as powerful as i think they are, a few will make it into my top tables. The only thing is *ARE* they as powerful as i think they are? We have the tools to kill a night in one turn. Everyone was terrified of Mortarion when the codex dropped. I've not lost to him yet. I ignore him and put everything into killing him. Once he drops, the list always falls apart. The same will likely be true for the knights. The new indominus class knights only has a WS skill of 4+ at the top profile. Eldar of every form has -1 to hit shennanigans they can pull off. I don't think they will be as strong as people think. I believe the new helverins have strong game when coupled with guard. |
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 22, 2018 12:48:38 GMT
mattblowers i havent actually managed to kill a Knight this edition; nor have i killed EDIT; I have actually killed a grand total of 1, back when i was playing gunline Nids and amanged a sneaky LOS move with a Rupture Fex and a double tapping HG. The other 2 Knights mauled the Fex though. Mortarion with Nids (i havent met it yet). We have double tapping HG as a staple. Maybe some smites from HTs if you ignore their points giveaway. Then what? Genestealers as a staple to kill T5 is already a touch-and-go, to kill T8 is a joke. OOE is a good option IMO tbh but he's not a staple. HVCs if you run Carnifex Stampede? That's legitimate. What else? As for Eldar trickery... you're not wrong there. But a Knight in cc is going to ignore most of that and tear Aeldar apart. Its not like they dont have melee reach. Sp if there is a lot of terrain, i think Knights are very hampered, while low terrain/blocks tables are like a field day.
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Post by mattblowers on Jun 22, 2018 12:57:43 GMT
Yeah I've taken them, I'd rather just take Horma's, they do the exact same job. Ahh, that's the issue. They are similar, but they don't do the same job at all in my lists. I love horms, they are the model that got me into tyranids. Horms have to come out of your deployment zone and are 4" slower than gargoyles and can be impeded by terrain/models. Where they really shine is the 6" consolidation. My issue with them is that my opponents have seen them so often they are great at countering what they can do. Gargoyles, on the other hand, can be kept in reserve in DS in later where you need them to be. The 12 movement and fly is great. They don't need to touch the enemy models to speed bump as they have the speed to get there without needing to charge/pile in. Being able to keep 2/3 units in reserve and dropping a unit in turn 2 and the last one on turn 3 has been really effective for me. I'm not hating on horms, I love them, I just believe that gargs are a better tool for this specific application. |
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