How do we deal with the New Knights?

[gigasnail]

Jun 16, 2018 13:59:44 GMT mule said:

Jun 16, 2018 13:50:14 GMT acehilator said:

mule: Knights are <TITANIC> units obviously, and because they are effing tall they get the "Super-heavy Walker" rule like the Ork Stompa. They can Fall Back + shoot/Charge, and can move over <INFANTRY> and <SWARMS> when falling back.

Only if there is a place for them to fallback to. So if you spread gants or something enough and surround it you can lock it up. And because youre spreading them out enough the attacks in combat should only hit 4 or 5 models because thats all that is engaged.

My assumption is that they move like 10" though?

Pretty sure sure that's not how casualty allocation works. You have 4 guys in combat and the unit takes 12 wounds, as far as I can recall that unit is eating 12 wounds. If enough die that it pulls the IK out of combat due to how you choose to remove the wounded, you're no longer tarpitting it And preventing it from shooting.

Someone correct me there if I'm off base.

[purestrain]

Jun 16, 2018 16:33:28 GMT gigasnail said:

Jun 16, 2018 13:59:44 GMT mule said:

Only if there is a place for them to fallback to. So if you spread gants or something enough and surround it you can lock it up. And because youre spreading them out enough the attacks in combat should only hit 4 or 5 models because thats all that is engaged.

My assumption is that they move like 10" though?

Pretty sure sure that's not how casualty allocation works. You have 4 guys in combat and the unit takes 12 wounds, as far as I can recall that unit is eating 12 wounds. If enough die that it pulls the IK out of combat due to how you choose to remove the wounded, you're no longer tarpitting it And preventing it from shooting.

Someone correct me there if I'm off base.

You are correct, as the owner of the unit chooses what models to remove as casualties. This means that models not within the range of melee can still die, as long as they're apart of the unit in question.

[acehilator]

mule: A Gant unit of 30 will take at least 10 casualties in Overwatch and one fight phase, depending on the type of Knight probably more. Pretty hard to lock them in place with 15-20 models. The Knight only has to end its movement further than 1" away from enemy models. The new Dominus/Castellan move 10", regular Knights move 12".

[mattblowers]

Gargoyles. They are great speed bumps.

[silentrob]

I agree Tyrant Guard <Hydra> armed with CC+TS+AG in a Pod is the most reliable damage but also most expensive choice at 417pts

Old One Eye is also a no brainer but heres another overlooked option
Trygon Prime <Behemoth> armed with AG+TS+The Ymgarl Factor for 1/3 chance of S8 or +A else 2+Sv for the inevitable stomp return attacks. Combining a re-rollable charge, re-roll 1s with 7 attacks with massive scything talons and Voracious Appetite for the re-roll wounds and you're onto a winner for 211pts
Then maybe transport genestealers or hormagaunts to make use of Brute Force for some mortal wounds.

[gigasnail]

yeah but then you're taking a trygon prime. which is has the glorious triumvirate of being not great, expensive, and fragile and now cannot DS outside of its deployment zone T1 which both damages its ability to get stuck in and act as a taxi.

[mynameisjeff]

Jun 16, 2018 23:28:42 GMT silentrob said:

I agree Tyrant Guard <Hydra> armed with CC+TS+AG in a Pod is the most reliable damage but also most expensive choice at 417pts

Old One Eye is also a no brainer but heres another overlooked option
Trygon Prime <Behemoth> armed with AG+TS+The Ymgarl Factor for 1/3 chance of S8 or +A else 2+Sv for the inevitable stomp return attacks. Combining a re-rollable charge, re-roll 1s with 7 attacks with massive scything talons and Voracious Appetite for the re-roll wounds and you're onto a winner for 211pts
Then maybe transport genestealers or hormagaunts to make use of Brute Force for some mortal wounds.

I have a friendly knight battle coming up and very much leaning towards running the following with OOE. At the moment I can field two stone crushers with wrecker claws and a single screamer killer for CC. Also have two dakka fex’s with ES, SC, HVC and mix of DS and DV’s. Supporting I’ll probably run either a walkrant or SL with multiple genestealers.

[silentrob]

Jun 20, 2018 8:00:41 GMT mynameisjeff said:

Jun 16, 2018 23:28:42 GMT silentrob said:

I agree Tyrant Guard <Hydra> armed with CC+TS+AG in a Pod is the most reliable damage but also most expensive choice at 417pts

Old One Eye is also a no brainer but heres another overlooked option
Trygon Prime <Behemoth> armed with AG+TS+The Ymgarl Factor for 1/3 chance of S8 or +A else 2+Sv for the inevitable stomp return attacks. Combining a re-rollable charge, re-roll 1s with 7 attacks with massive scything talons and Voracious Appetite for the re-roll wounds and you're onto a winner for 211pts
Then maybe transport genestealers or hormagaunts to make use of Brute Force for some mortal wounds.

I have a friendly knight battle coming up and very much leaning towards running the following with OOE. At the moment I can field two stone crushers with wrecker claws and a single screamer killer for CC. Also have two dakka fex’s with ES, SC, HVC and mix of DS and DV’s. Supporting I’ll probably run either a walkrant or SL with multiple genestealers.

Definitely get the Swarmlord to catapult OOE or one of the stonecrushers up the field.
If you do use Genestealers remember toxin sacs otherwise they are lacklustre. Dakka Fexs with HVC/ES/DS/Spores are great but if you've got the models and the points a Flying Hive Tyrant with HVC and smite/psychic scream will always trump it. I'd be slightly tempted to equip a Hive Tyrant with the miasma cannon for autohits and free damage if it gets charged.

--------------------------------------

Key points:
1.Don't charge a Knight armed with a gauntlet with a MONSTER.
Stratagem which basically autokills them with continuous STR tests.

2.Don't charge a Knight armed with a reaper chainsword with a heap of INFANTRY.
Stratagem each model within 3" takes a mortal wound on a 6.

1. & 2. Unless you can kill it on the charge or your opponent is out of command points. Also if its worth the risk.

-------------------------------------

Remember to win the mission objectives with ripper swarms or gaunts because your opponent isn't gonna waste his heavy weapons on them when hes got so many Carnifexs to deal with. If your opponent has any Armigers or allied infantry kill them first to deny victory points gained from objectives.

Surround your monsters with a screen of gaunts to absorb charges and remember to mob Armigers as they can't step over units to fallback.

Might be useful to keep a 30 Gargoyles to charge the Valiant Knight absorbing overwatch for Carnifexs.

Grab some HiveGuard or Biovores otherwise you're losing out on using [Single-Minded Annihilation]

If a catapulted OOE or a stonecrusher kills a knight and is left exposed remember to use the [Overrun] stratagem.

One dead knight is always better than two damaged ones in my book and 99% of Tyranids are Hive Fleet Kraken.

Goodluck

[acehilator]

Don't charge a Knight with a Monster unless you can reliably kill it in the following fight phase, period. Swarmy with his 3++ might be the only exception. The Gauntlet stratagem is not the reason, at least Monsters have a decent chance to break it early, unlike Infantry.

[hiveminded]

Jun 16, 2018 14:35:35 GMT N.I.B. said:

Knights are tasty. Killed a couple yesterday when I tabled Wolves soup. Hive Guards, Smite, Genestealers, Flyrants with MRC.

Am curious...did you run the genestealers with toxin sacs or stock?

[N.I.B.]

Jun 20, 2018 15:41:37 GMT hiveminded said:

Jun 16, 2018 14:35:35 GMT N.I.B. said:

Knights are tasty. Killed a couple yesterday when I tabled Wolves soup. Hive Guards, Smite, Genestealers, Flyrants with MRC.

Am curious...did you run the genestealers with toxin sacs or stock?

We don't do list tailoring, and I would never take toxin sacs on stealers in an all-comers build.

[nidzy]

Jun 20, 2018 12:30:18 GMT acehilator said:

Don't charge a Knight with a Monster unless you can reliably kill it in the following fight phase, period. Swarmy with his 3++ might be the only exception. The Gauntlet stratagem is not the reason, at least Monsters have a decent chance to break it early, unlike Infantry.

This is correct. Any 2 hits will kill a stonecrusher, and it only takes one from the paragon gauntlet. In fact, any 2 hits/wounds will kill almost all of the monsters in our book, and any one wound from the paragon will drop any monster in our book down a profile.

[kazetanade]

nerf Knights plx ¬_¬

[mule]

After picking up the codex and reading it through I still feel the solution I'm going to take is just Biovores. Control where they can move and play angles as best as possible. Controlling movement + being super fast = victory points, which means we win. 4-6 Biovores + 1-3 units of rippers are pretty much auto take in my lists anyways so it doesn't bother me that now my biovores have to shoot at the 600 point model just to prevent it from smashing into my genestealers who are killing their troop/scoring units. They would also prevent it from doing any of the heroic intervention shenanigans. I also don't think taking gargoyes is a good option, even though they're still a chaff unit I think just dumping the 200 points into biovores will do more vs every list than the 60/120/180 points of gargoyles will, though someone can disagree with me if they'd like.

I kind of stated this whilst I was playing with the index but the more big dudes you take the rougher time you're going to have, which is why i've always just decided to run the hiveguard instead of running 2x exocrine or a tfex. Carnifex/Swarmlord/Flyrants are the exception to this but with knights being a bit more prevelant (I still don't think they'll dominate the meta to the point where we will have to tailor lists to killing them) just reinforces my point.

A lot of lists with knights are going to have problems gaining access to CP. They'll pretty much be taking 1 detachment of knights (either a single one and forgoeing the 1 cp, or a full detachment and gaining the extra cp) with a cheap guard battalion and then the last detachment for whatever they're looking to do; either more guard, or possibly admech. SM and Custodes are already pretty point dense, means they're going to be running a very low model count, which has proven not that great in literally every army in 8th.

All in all I think knights, yes are scary. But not the end all be all. Your current balanced lists should be able to deal with them in some way, either by completely ignoring them weathering the damage output and just getting too many points.

I think if you try and actively kill them you're going to have a hard time dealing with them. Yes OOE can hurt them, yes Tyrant Guard can hurt them, but in general you're probably not taking either of those models vs any other army and I'm not going to list tailor unless the meta as a whole changes. Yes you can launch your swarmy into it but the amount of damage you have to put into it, and the fact that it can fall back use 1 cp to fire at full strength, or crush your OOE/Swarmy every turn with gauntlet, is just really rough. Killing the other 1400 points seems like the better option, and you can minimize damage with biovores, which are useful in every list regardless. At least in my opinion.

I don't think my stance will change until GSC codex comes out and we have more access to tools and etc.

[arapaima]

Thank for the tip fellas.

I swear one of the most depressing thing abt playing knights is seeing our big scary monsters getting squished lik bugs in 1 round of combat.

Gonna grab me more hiveguards.