Deathleaper & Lictor brainstorming

[cypheon]

May 26, 2018 6:54:11 GMT defektor said:

Let’s asdume that there not going to change any stats,
So could the lictor problem be addressed with a change to the unit size from 1 to 1-3 ?
Having the infiltration ability would be a nice addition and fit their battle role.

1-3, if they gain infiltrate, would work for casual. 1-3 + infiltrate + pheromone trail being usable on GS for outside-deployment on turn 1 would make them viable for competitive lists.

Its kinda that or full rewrite of their statline to get people to buy the kit again.

[Hive Bahamut]

Which is presumptly why it doesn't have good rules. No need to move stock on an old kit. Deathleaper IMO is the most ridiculous model in all of 40k. Salad finger middle claw? 14 eyes on something that doesn't even move? Get out of here.

I keep using Biovores as the 8th example. 36 points saw them "sold out" on GW site for a while. Now that they dumped enough finecast, bump to 50 points and lock out all but the most intent sales.

Our useless assassin's will continue to be so until they decide to dual kit them. At best.

On the plus side they are one of the few Midzilla models that are poop now. Nothing like 7th where anything T4 with multiwounds was a waste of points.

[hadies]

I like the terrain idea that was mentioned, where a lictor could pop up in terrain outside of 1" of an enemy model, that would be great! It would add some (though not a lot) tension to the enemy's movements, which is kind of what lictors should do.


I was thinking that an alternative upgrade could be a copy of the death-mark ability from the necron codex. Make it so a lictor or DL could pop in immediately after an enemy unit did so, and charge that unit before they can do anything. Maybe even bypass over-watch or something. I could see that coming in super handy.


A stat buff would not go amiss either, definitely more attacks, and maybe some wounds as well. I don't think more AP would be necessary, though giving DL monstrous rending claws would make seance. Though they are sometimes necessary, straight up stat buffs and point changes are a boring fix in my opinion. Again, some times it is necessary, and all a model needs is a number buff, but I think the main problem with the lictor and DL is they don't feel like stealthy assassins, they just feel like lone warriors who pop up, hope to do something then die. 

[dc0315]

Apr 11, 2019 20:12:04 GMT hadies said:

I like the terrain idea that was mentioned, where a lictor could pop up in terrain outside of 1" of an enemy model, that would be great! It would add some (though not a lot) tension to the enemy's movements, which is kind of what lictors should do.


I was thinking that an alternative upgrade could be a copy of the death-mark ability from the necron codex. Make it so a lictor or DL could pop in immediately after an enemy unit did so, and charge that unit before they can do anything. Maybe even bypass over-watch or something. I could see that coming in super handy.


A stat buff would not go amiss either, definitely more attacks, and maybe some wounds as well. I don't think more AP would be necessary, though giving DL monstrous rending claws would make seance. Though they are sometimes necessary, straight up stat buffs and point changes are a boring fix in my opinion. Again, some times it is necessary, and all a model needs is a number buff, but I think the main problem with the lictor and DL is they don't feel like stealthy assassins, they just feel like lone warriors who pop up, hope to do something then die. 

in 3rd ed you could have a unit of 3 lictors, pick a piece if terrain and write it down on a paper. Turn 2 they auto came out in that terrain and u show it to your opponent, they can move and chatge after. So your enemy was forced to co trol all the terrain around him and fill it up with his models so the lictor wont be able to get out and gets destroyed. It was awesome because if he left a small gap for them theyd come out and really hurt his lines and if he did kill them hes out and closer to the rest of your army. Good times!

[miles]

I wouldn't mind being able to take them in unit sizes of 1-3, but I wouldn't want to get locked into a minimum unit size of 3. I've been a big advocate of lictors the entire edition so far, and they rarely let me down. A lot of people have said they're useless, I think every unit we have is a viable unit, you just have to know how to play them. Locking into a 'here's a unit, but something else does this aspect of it better' mindset just puts a roadblock in the way of creative thinking and figuring out how to use a unit, in my opinion.

So far, lictors have worked for me to kill individual characters, kill small units, tie up heavy weapons, take and hold objectives, prevent critical deep strikes, counter deep strikers and cause hesitation in my opponents. They've been much more effective for me than rippers, that's for sure.

[LordPathos]

NECRONTYR!!!

[hadies]

Apr 12, 2019 17:20:03 GMT miles said:

I wouldn't mind being able to take them in unit sizes of 1-3, but I wouldn't want to get locked into a minimum unit size of 3. I've been a big advocate of lictors the entire edition so far, and they rarely let me down. A lot of people have said they're useless, I think every unit we have is a viable unit, you just have to know how to play them. Locking into a 'here's a unit, but something else does this aspect of it better' mindset just puts a roadblock in the way of creative thinking and figuring out how to use a unit, in my opinion.

So far, lictors have worked for me to kill individual characters, kill small units, tie up heavy weapons, take and hold objectives, prevent critical deep strikes, counter deep strikers and cause hesitation in my opponents. They've been much more effective for me than rippers, that's for sure.

First off, what is the benefit of a unit of 3? Wouldn't that make killing a cluster of them easier, as they wont have to target each unit separately?

Second, I have also found some uses for lictors in a builders league I am in. Same as you Miles. I have fairly reliably dropped him out of sight, but in charge range of lots of big guns that would wreck my more valuable units if they weren't tied up. Twice he has assasinated characters, and a couple times he has scored VP's by grabbing objectives. No matter his goal, every time I drop him, he suddenly becomes a prime target, which coveres other units.

[iniquity]

May 25, 2018 10:58:40 GMT N.I.B. said:

Evident of the first page on these boards, the pre-8th 'all units viable' hype turned out to be a lot of hot air, as expected. But I'm almost more annoyed of these 'fix unit X' threads than the actual failing units. Must be my cranky old age.

"Tyranids were really bad at one point in time and now were less bad" is the general consensus. Gonna try white scars. 

[mattblowers]

Aug 14, 2019 5:31:07 GMT iniquity said:

May 25, 2018 10:58:40 GMT N.I.B. said:

Evident of the first page on these boards, the pre-8th 'all units viable' hype turned out to be a lot of hot air, as expected. But I'm almost more annoyed of these 'fix unit X' threads than the actual failing units. Must be my cranky old age.

"Tyranids were really bad at one point in time and now were less bad" is the general consensus. Gonna try white scars. 

More like, "Play with the units we do have that are decent rather than endless threads wishlisting how to fix ones that are bad."

FWIW: White Scars will have bad units too. It's kinda a GW thing.

[swarm492]

What's crazy is just last night I had a 30 minute rant with a friend over the phone on how lictors suck and how we can change them.

For me the core of the issue is the units role and how it's changed from codex to codex. Lictors were at their best IMO during second edd, 1 man unit blenders. That's what I wish they were now, and I really hope GW moves them back in that direction.

[cunningtyrant]

If lictors had -2 to hit them and Deathleaper had -3 I would use them a lot, even if they stayed the same in every other way. They are invisible hunters, God damn it! They should be good at least at something, so let it be survivability against shooting. When you compare Deathleaper to Sanctus which costs the same, it's just sad.

5++ and re-written rule for "It's after me!" On top of that would be just great. If that could reduce leadership of a character by D3 like it was in the previous edition, I would take him in every game. The way this ability works right now is almost useless.

[N.I.B.]

This corpse just won't stay in the ground.

[purestrain]

Mirror keller but for melee. Deathleaper gets a version of lying in wait against his target character, he should also give <LICTOR> +1 wounds. All lictor should get +1 wounds on successful charge from deepstrike.

[iniquity]

Aug 14, 2019 11:12:44 GMT mattblowers said:

Aug 14, 2019 5:31:07 GMT iniquity said:

"Tyranids were really bad at one point in time and now were less bad" is the general consensus. Gonna try white scars. 

More like, "Play with the units we do have that are decent rather than endless threads wishlisting how to fix ones that are bad."

FWIW: White Scars will have bad units too. It's kinda a GW thing.

Very true, its quite easy to get stuck in the mindset "everything is bad waa waa" 

Ive taken a chill with competitive play as it got frustrating as i dont yet have the skill set to enjoy playing monodex nids. 

I think flyrants are amazing just for being so very average at everything.

Ive started using 2x big squads of hormagaunts and i think they are really under rated. 

What else would you say are the stand out units in the nid book?

[mattblowers]

Aug 15, 2019 1:26:09 GMT iniquity said:

What else would you say are the stand out units in the nid book?

The thing to remember is that we are about average in our codex. Many of our units are subpar. When you combine the two, you get an army that can actually do quite poorly. But all hope is not lost.

Our top tier units:
-hive guard
-genestealers
-broodlord? not sure on him, the price drop makes it a conversation
-malanthrope
-rippers
-zoanthropes
-nuerothrope? maybe not because of how pricey they are now
-carnifex (I waffled on this one, might be a tier too high)

next tier:
-acidfex
-termagaunts (you need a lot)
-venomthropes
-flyrant
-hormogaunts

everything else.