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Post by No One on Jul 14, 2019 13:28:31 GMT
I tested the 10 man 4 saws and they couldnt kill Deredeo Chaos Dreadnoughts (only scratched the paint) - I think they only really work against T7 normal vehicles. Even against Russes, 4 saws doesnt go anywhere (or rather, it doesnt land the kill - so unless you can mass-tie up, they're doing a 120-0 trades). Yeah, wounding on 3s vs 4s makes a pretty big difference. Add on the 4++ (I am thinking of the right dread?) and it's basically harmless. Of course, it needs multiple buffs to kill even T7 3+, so...yeah. ...How badly did you roll? (Or does a discordant have some big survivability buff I'm not aware of?) Because primus+basically any of those kills it (not BC strat, but it gets close: it is very underwhelming against anything other than Imp, yes. It's basically reroll 1s that stacks with reroll 1s). All of that should've killed two discordants with leeway. Something like 26 wounds onto T6 3+/5++: even with cursed earth you should've killed it with room to spare. I was going to say something to defend acos, but...yeah. When I PA a squad separate, I almost always chuck might or draw blood on them and that's usually just enough. Stacking all the buffs makes a big difference, both for survivability and damage. Aberrants benefit from buffs a lot, but only really care about might or primus. Hmm...I'm going to have to think about this: could perform a similar roll to my handflamer+demo squad, in the sense of being able to apply damage separate to the acolytes. Possibly also the neuros i.e. consistant damage from behind the aco screens, which are more dangerous and need to be dealt with. Of course, I'm not sure on the practicalities of detachments/models (I think I've only got 4 mining lasers, which I don't think would be enough). And I'm not sure if they fill those roles well enough (and how well those rolls are needed). So, this is where I think you miss the concept behind my list a bit: it doesn't care about trading up that much. It's cool if it happens, but it's never something I'd set out to achieve. What it wants to do is use DS to take kill stuff first, and almost prevent trades from happening at all: even if every squad kills down, that's still something like 500 pts of (ideally) my opponent's most threatening stuff to little immediate loss. Add on the psychics, some chip from mortars, maybe some tags or hostages and now my opponent can't make it a trade on everything: I rarely lose even half the acolytes to immediate retaliation, and if you can't kill half the acolytes straight up...Of course, my follow up isn't as strong either, which is where the neos may help. But it's still there, especially with another squad potentially in reserve. And finally, this should hopefully all have been happening on objectives, so I win on VP even if they do grind me out. Now, that's the idea (and I've been able to pull it off along those lines quite consistently), but I can't exactly say with confidence that better opponent's/lists or different match ups won't kill the game plan. Fast screens (e.g. guardsmen/DE) makes both getting the kills, and fighting on objectives difficult. I've managed to do it every time so far against DE (and the two times I've played guard+knights), but I won't say that my opponent making different plays/a bit worse luck wouldn't have seen me lose. Also, the 20 acos kill 30 boys with primus+relic banner. Just under with pain boy and not the most comfortable with overwatch/daisy chains, but chuck in some pistols/mortars etc and you should usually be OK. They need buffs, but the aura buffs are usually pretty reasonable to get: unless PA charge, they're how you got into combat in the first place . Fair: I like it partly because I like acolytes, partly because I don't feel I have any good shooting options. Both from a model perspective and an 'I don't trust terrain' (though we seem to be moving towards an almost magic box ruins thing here, so these ideas are something I should keep in mind). But I'm listening to a podcast (Bifpod) where one of the guys has been doing reasonably well with triple tank commander (BC+plasma) as the shooting support, which seems reasonable. Of course, he's also found it very punishing to play: less the tank commanders and more the acolyte/aberrant kill squads I think. Just an idea for you: I like it more than our other in house shooting options, at least as far as 'on table' goes (BC neos are interesting, though I'm not sure about damage outside of BC WL target). If you figure it out, let me know . I wouldn't mind seeing it in action.
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 14, 2019 17:23:00 GMT
No One few points: 1. The Disco thing is my bad - I counted only the first set of 20 rends, and forgot the 2nd set of 20. Super careless, not sure what happened up there. That unit with its Primus should have been able to kill 2 separate Disco Lords on a good roll (but I only applied like half damage which wasnt enough, meaning I rolled below average and wouldnt have gotten 2 kills anyway). 2. The Deredeo's were T7. It's the Contemptor I think which is T8 - I was considering the Rusted Claw Biker squad for that one, but it doesnt look like it'll pull through, since it's basically a Russ with an invul. ` 3. I'm not saying that Acolytes must trade up (but I do think GSC is really about the trades - I find myself losing a lot recently, because I can no longer make decent trades and lose much more points than the enemy does at every turn due to the damage being spread to several decent output T7 chassis rather than a few T8 concentrated ones). I'm saying that since they cant kill a lot of their targets unless you can buff them up, they'll always end up trading whole units for next to nothing, especially if you cant get past the DS blockers. The test games above were against Dan Houston's list (a variation with a Knight and Helverins instead of Helblades and even more Contemptors), and I was facing FIFTEEN!! [/b] models and I couldnt get into them and do anything. It shoots into combat, it clears hordes (1 model took out nearly 20 models by itself, before getting shafted by the Purge Deredeos), and each model is cheap enough that losing it to an Acolyte squad charging in doesnt even hurt, because the retaliation is through the roof. I think it could work with 9 Acolytes in 3 waves, because then I could expend 20/40/60 to clear the first bump, then another 20/40 to clear the 2nd, and the remainder can then clear what's left. I havent figured out how to fit 9 big Acolyte units in, hence I wanted to test what the 10 mans could do (which were (please do not swear) all, and actually really upsetting). 4. TC's have been recommended, and were considered. I was originally expecting Castellans to still be a big thing here. I was surprised my last few games didnt have any at all. I was told that BC TC's were a Eldar player's worst nightmare, although I remain a bit sceptical - maybe AM ones with the reroll top hatch and/or Cadian's Overlapping Fire. Supposedly it's how Eldar planes cant kill Leman Russes that make them a (please do not swear) to deal with, but after dealing 6W (1 Crimson Hunter per Russ would probably get this) they're only hitting on 6s so... not sure if that's a real thing or Eldar players being (please do not swear) again. 5. This is only for early consideration. But, Hive Cult + Bladed Cog + Twisted Helix/FAE might be something pretty radical. HC with a Jackal and 1 unit of 3 Ridgerunners could be good, with the 3d3 Mining Lasers/3d6 Heavy Mortars hitting on 2+ reroll 1s (Chilling Efficiency, havent checked if it works). Followed by the Bladed Cog with Mining Lasers hitting on 3+ reroll 1s(maybe) and reroll/1s wounds. Then either Twisted Helix or FAE for the melee portion.
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 15, 2019 13:02:02 GMT
New Abby list concept. It's centered around MTO like traditional Nids, which I seemed to have lost with subsequent and subsequent lists. So I guess it's like going back to basics with new tech. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [37 PL, 6CP, 617pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +Battle-forged CP [3CP]Cult Creed: None (Mixed Detachment) Detachment CP [5CP]Specialist Detachment: Deliverance Broodsurge [-1CP]+ HQ +Acolyte Iconward [3 PL, -1CP, 53pts]: Icon of the Cult Ascendant, Stratagem: Field Commander, Warlord Trait: Augur of the Insurgent Magus [5 PL, 92pts]: Broodcoven Magus, Familiar, Power: Mass Hypnosis, Power: Might From Beyond, Warlord Trait: Inscrutable Cunning + Troops +Acolyte Hybrids [11 PL, 152pts]. 18x Acolyte Hybrid (Hand Flamer): 18x Hand Flamer . Acolyte Leader: Cultist Knife, Hand Flamer Acolyte Hybrids [9 PL, 175pts]: Cult Icon . 8x Acolyte Hybrid . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw . Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw . Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: Brood Brothers Leader . 9x Brood Brother + Elites +Clamavus [3 PL, 55pts]Nexos [3 PL, 50pts]++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [30 PL, 4CP, 559pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +Cult Creed: The Bladed Cog Detachment CP [5CP]Stratagem: Broodcoven [-1CP]+ HQ +Jackal Alphus [4 PL, 70pts]Patriarch [7 PL, 125pts]: Power: Mass Hypnosis, Power: Psionic Blast, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Single-minded Obsession + Troops +Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 76pts]. 5x Neophyte Hybrid . 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Mining Laser . 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Webber): 2x Webber . Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 76pts]. 5x Neophyte Hybrid . 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Mining Laser . 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Webber): 2x Webber . Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 76pts]. 5x Neophyte Hybrid . 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Mining Laser . 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Webber): 2x Webber . Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol Neophyte Hybrids [4 PL, 76pts]. 5x Neophyte Hybrid . 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Mining): 2x Mining Laser . 2x Neophyte Hybrid (Webber): 2x Webber . Neophyte Leader: Autogun, Autopistol + Elites +Kelermorph [3 PL, 60pts]++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [48 PL, 4CP, 824pts] +++ No Force Org Slot +Cult Creed: The Twisted Helix Detachment CP [5CP]Specialist Detachment: Anointed Throng [-1CP]+ HQ +Patriarch [7 PL, 125pts]: Power: Mental Onslaught, Power: Psychic Stimulus Primus [4 PL, 75pts]: Bonesword, Broodcoven Primus, Warlord Trait: Alien Majesty + Troops +Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: Brood Brothers Leader . 9x Brood Brother Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: Brood Brothers Leader . 9x Brood Brother Brood Brothers Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: Brood Brothers Leader . 9x Brood Brother + Elites +Aberrants [14 PL, 252pts]. 8x Aberrant (Pick): 8x Power Pick . 2x Aberrant Hypermorph (Improvised): 2x Heavy Improvised Weapon Aberrants [14 PL, 252pts]. 8x Aberrant (Pick): 8x Power Pick . 2x Aberrant Hypermorph (Improvised): 2x Heavy Improvised Weapon ++ Total: [115 PL, 14CP, 2,000pts] ++Created with BattleScribe
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 19, 2019 18:12:05 GMT
So a little update, list doesnt work with MTO style play. Doesnt have enough tools to actually get into combat, and as No One will attest to, getting stuck into combat and wrapping is the fundemental of a melee MTO list survival. If it work a little more support into both portions, we could probably get the Throng / Broodsurge split with TH / FAE to really round things out. But I'd have to drop something important for that, which are the guns.
Now I've liked the BC Lasers quite a bit, they've been all-stars scoring me Kingslayer on DiscoLords, taking out that 1 tank on the drop then maiming another, then taking out another the next turn. I'm not sure if they will remain a fixture in the new SM meta since bolters rip them a new hole, but I guess the TH Abbys also rip them a new one.
I would also like the Abom into the Abbys, so as to make them big and buff - full buffs on Abbys to kill 2 Discolords in 1 combat. Being able to take on multiple threats before Fight Twice makes them very valuable, and Fight Twice then doubles that in the ideal scenarios. The alternative is to stick with the basic and Fight Again to kill a 2nd Discolord.
AKelly's been useless, so maybe I can remove him for the Abom. But with Primaris coming back in... I guess it could help, although his record is poor vs Primaris so far (full unload, 1 guy dies).
Last thing to add might be the Rusted Claw combo. Now, with average dice I should be killing a T7 vehicle with it. I feel like we need the Alphus to make it work really well, but dumping 70pts to support 75pts sounds stupid to me. We're already dumping 4 cp for it.
Does the hive readers have any opinions on this?
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Post by No One on Aug 20, 2019 10:10:31 GMT
AKelly's been useless, so maybe I can remove him for the Abom. But with Primaris coming back in... I guess it could help, although his record is poor vs Primaris so far (full unload, 1 guy dies). I mean, I don't know why you'd be worried about primaris (that kelly could shoot anyway: primaris in transports are probably going to be obnoxious). Saws just pick them up, and abby's do just fine too. Kelly's not bad, but it's an extra 2 primaris dead: meh. I feel it competes too much in function or resources with the rest of your list: namely it wants to do similar stuff to the BC neos, and competes with the flamer drop. Also breaks your Creeds, since you're not running mixed anywhere. Back for consideration if the BC isn't as good, but otherwise I doubt it's worth looking at.
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 20, 2019 17:20:55 GMT
AKelly's been useless, so maybe I can remove him for the Abom. But with Primaris coming back in... I guess it could help, although his record is poor vs Primaris so far (full unload, 1 guy dies). I mean, I don't know why you'd be worried about primaris (that kelly could shoot anyway: primaris in transports are probably going to be obnoxious). Saws just pick them up, and abby's do just fine too. Kelly's not bad, but it's an extra 2 primaris dead: meh. I feel it competes too much in function or resources with the rest of your list: namely it wants to do similar stuff to the BC neos, and competes with the flamer drop. Also breaks your Creeds, since you're not running mixed anywhere. Back for consideration if the BC isn't as good, but otherwise I doubt it's worth looking at. Not really worried, just an additional point in his favour. I'm not certain yet on dropping. I'd drop another BC squad to get the Demo Bikes in, in the matchups that I could use them. Or, swap the BCs out for something else altogether. I have a mixed detachment on Det 1, so I can just chuck them in there. I'm just not sure if I want to. What else would you recommend to change the list in your mind?
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Post by No One on Aug 21, 2019 2:48:40 GMT
Well, I don't exactly have experience with any of the pieces of the list, but thoughts:
On the topic of discussion: since you're running mixed, I think dropping kelly for jackals would be the way to go. If your kelly's anything like mine (and it sounds like he is), then he rarely does anything very important. Decent, but...well, jackals are way more than decent when you can use them to full effect. So as long as you'd have the CP+target some games, that's a pretty big impact, and you can always just deploy them as an annoying unit when you need all the CP for the aberrants/lying in wait for the flamers or whatever.
The only other thing would be the 8" rerollable charge in for the saws, but I guess it's been working OK for you? And TH patty: I've found my patty has very rarely made combat. How much of that is being cautious with my important buff bubble, and how much is that he doesn't get the charge on the drop, and then combats move away faster than he can keep up? Not sure: I think it's more the former than the latter though.
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 26, 2019 19:56:07 GMT
Well, I don't exactly have experience with any of the pieces of the list, but thoughts: On the topic of discussion: since you're running mixed, I think dropping kelly for jackals would be the way to go. If your kelly's anything like mine (and it sounds like he is), then he rarely does anything very important. Decent, but...well, jackals are way more than decent when you can use them to full effect. So as long as you'd have the CP+target some games, that's a pretty big impact, and you can always just deploy them as an annoying unit when you need all the CP for the aberrants/lying in wait for the flamers or whatever. The only other thing would be the 8" rerollable charge in for the saws, but I guess it's been working OK for you? And TH patty: I've found my patty has very rarely made combat. How much of that is being cautious with my important buff bubble, and how much is that he doesn't get the charge on the drop, and then combats move away faster than he can keep up? Not sure: I think it's more the former than the latter though. I dont actually rely on the 8" rerollable charge - one of them will make it in since you can reroll both dice if its bad or spend 1cp to reroll 1. I tend to have to spend 1 cp for that one. But so far when playing the Abberants, it's been weird - almost every game I've played them, there's something within charging range of my starting point, (infiltrating units, or super aggressive play) so I save PA for that Saws unit. Probably not every game, but so far it's been like that, and I havent faced off with a pure long range shooty army or vs Tau yet. I would prefer it to be a 7" rerollable honestly for the comfort feel, but I need the Iconward Icon for the Abberants, so I need at least 53pts for the Abbys to have their own banner. That means no bikers. Honestly, the Bikers are a touch and go - we were discussing it and felt that replacing the Kellermorph is a key thing, and most people think my list will be helped with more shooting, like another BC Neophyte unit. The issue being that another Neophyte unit does mean that I have to get a very hard to get Bitz (Webbers, frickin awesome) and stack another 10 guys of bodies somewhere next to 40 other bodies. Which is not a bad thing (annoying at worst due to space), but it isnt going to be as consistent as a 4cp Biker bomb. On the other hand, Auspex Scan and such strategems really destroy that biker squad. What the guys suggested is starting the Bikes on the ground - they'll drive up, grab First Blood, then screen something off, basically guaranteeing me 2 VP with Old Skool (which I'm on the fence about, since getting a kill T1 with that set up isnt too difficult, but how often are there going to be infiltrators or super aggressive plays in my face?) and if too far I could just Engineers them or pull them into reserves. CP has been a bit of a problem. I've been forced to use Generations in a few games (denying Death does Duty End, Auspex, World Eater's 2+ deny), and I find myself scrounging for my last 2-3cp combo - without Generations, I have the extra space. That makes me leaning towards no on the Bikes, but I have mine 3 colors already... so I'll probably give them a try before list submission day. If they dont do too great, I'll probably get another Iconward instead and make the 1st detachment purely FAE, so they'll have a high chance of making the combat but wont have the proper morale and offensive buffs. Ref the TH Patriarch - he's been there to make my Acolytes and Abberants fearless. His main role is to smite, fearless-ify things, and charge half-eaten tanks or elites and finish them off - and not touch anything with a decent invul. Jesus, he couldnt finish Trajann on his last wound, 3++ is too strong. With the Abberrants being the only TH thing around instead of 4 TH combat units that need to be Fearless, maybe I could bring something else. Bringing a Magus and using the extra points for Familiars for everyone could work - he's almost never had the chance to get into combat, honestly, but the Fearless was a big factor in how my opponents had to decide to completely wipe a unit to get their Kill and Kill Mores, instead of spreading it out and letting morale do it (and do more damage in general). I think I could do change that 1 Patty into a Magus and Iconward, and maintain the bikers even... But if I'm making everything FAE, the Bikes are useless, so that's the one thing I shouldnt do. Let's say we do a FAE/BC/TH instead of the mixed and Bikes - I'll get 2 drops at 7" rerollable on T2 or T3, 40 Neophytes with mini flamers and mining lasers to hurt hordes and tanks, then 2 units of Abbys, each of them having their own appropriate buffs. I get 13 or 14cp, with d3 (2 average) extra cp for 15cp. I need to start with 2cp down to take 4 units back into Reserves, because this list cant believe whats on the table properly. So that's down to 13. Assuming that T2 I dont have too much burning to do so I dont need to LiW the Flamerlytes, I can drop both them and the Saws for free - the BC are dropped for free. So I use PA for a Abby to come up for that 3d6 charge. Let's say that this is in a great position so I Fight Again for total 6cp burnt this turn. Next turn I have one more Abby which comes in via PA - that's 9cp burnt. Assuming that I need to use Vect at one point, that puts me at 11cp spent, with 2 spare. Just enough to account for a LiW that I may need in the IG matchup, or a Fight When Die if I get countercharged on his turn. I've only had enough CP because they started and reached their targets on the board - one of them starting on the board and being able to get stuck in felt really important. They tend to soak 80% of the enemy's shooting per unit. If I take bikers, I literally have just enough if 1 unit starts on the board. (and they were talking about using summoning... aint no one got cp for that shitz). One other thing that's making me uncertain is the new Primaris (and Aggressors) - having actual 3W targets is a bit difficult to deal with, and I fought Salamander ones the day before and they were ridiculously hard to kill. I burnt all 40 Neophytes with rapidfire Lasguns and Flamers and Lasers (3+ to hit and reroll wounds), and I think 5/6 died. Then I charged Infiltrators with my Stop Signs, both Stop Signs hitting into the unit of 5, only 3 died. Transhuman Physioilogy took out a huge amount of the bite, and with their ignoring -1ap, I was basically bashing a brick wall with my head even with the 2 damage. It's pretty damn scary how hard they were to kill when I needed to score it. I was thinking also that the Aggressors might be able to be taken out with a BC Acolyte unit with reroll to wound and +1 to W for the big rends... but I'm not confident. They're T5, so if I dont Might, I'll be hitting with 18x2+1=37A of 3+ (no rr1 no points) reroll wounds, which means 4+ and 5+rends; so 24A hit, 18 wound, 12 are rends, leaving the unit with like 2 guys left (which is not bad), but that's an 8" charge without rerolls (awkward place to put the other buffs) while eating space for the Neophytes so it's probably a horrible idea. Could probably just leave it alive to finish off later, but the damage is so ridiculous I feel like they need to be purged... The SM codex feels like it's hiding some seriously scary stuff in it. I've only skimmed the strategems and have not done any sort of scrounging into the units, I'm pretty sure I'm missing some really big stuff here.
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Post by kazetanade on Aug 29, 2019 17:22:00 GMT
A couple of notes - Saws are GREAT for the new Primaris hotness, if they survive the drop and OW. SM can overwatch on 5+ rerollable, so Tau mad level. UM can FTGG as well so that's double ouch. WS are Kraken on steroids, being able to fall back and shoot and charge and run and charge with -1 from Assault Doc and 2D on the charge/charged/HI - SM hit back hard in combat so you cant get safety wraps unless it's like on 1 model or something.
Very rough -
Primus Acolyte of approx 15 models kills 4.5 Intercessors. 20 Man with Icon should kill all 5 no question.
2 Mighted Hypermorph + 1 Pickerant per Primaris Character. 2 Mighted Hypermorphs and 3 Pickerrants to kill Trajann (or SmashCap). Hypermorphs are great but swingy - even with 16A 2+ 2+ I was seldom getting enough failed saves to kill a character of 6/7W by themselves. Primaris are frickin tanky -usually 1 Pickerrant forcing saves on a 5+ is enough to kill it after, but 2 is the safe level.
Roughly 1 Mighted Pickerrant + Primus per Primaris. Hypermorphs roughly kill 2 to 3, although one round it went 0 Primaris kills.
The bikers are scrapped. If it's the proper UM Castle or something like that, the Bikers will get torn up really badly from interceptor fire. While burning 2cp to get in and risk being alive or not.
The 4 Neophyte squads dropping in have been a sort of fricken godsend. Their ability to burn Aggressors and other such stuff with T5, using the WLT is really really good. But the Mining Lasers should still shoot at a Tank instead. I might do a split in future where we nominate an Elite for the Webbers and the Lasguns, but use the Mining Lasers into Repulsors and stuff like that. On flip, due to such low level of chaff, the FLamerlyte unit has been pretty unhelpful.
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Post by kazetanade on Sept 1, 2019 19:52:22 GMT
Right, so two nights ago we were submitting lists for the upcoming tournament, and I got convinced to go in blind with a UM gunline for some reason. So instead of going in with the GSC I've been practicing every game for this year, I'm instead going to try and podium with an army I've never touched before. List is up on the front page, it works very much like Reece's UM list before the nerfs to Hellfire/Flakk Cherubing.
In theory it doesnt work too differently from the 30 Abby list that Nanavanti played for ETC, and requires as much finesse to make it work I think. This is going to be a rough 2 weeks most likely.
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Post by mrdodo on Sept 2, 2019 12:41:12 GMT
Well I will keep my personal opinion out of what I think about just taking (probably borrowing) armies to go to tournaments just because they are considered one of the strongest at the moment. I know people do it and I can understand why because if winning is the only goal it makes sense to bring the biggest gun. Same as the sad reality that people use loaded dice in high tier as it is almost impossible to control/check on tournaments.
I will go overseas to Londen GT in 2 weeks and I already know there will be a lot of ultramarine lists (in addition to the chaos and eldar stuff), so I was building some marine lists (which I actually own a large army from but I prefer Tyranids) to see what I can expect.
Its good to see that you have made a lot different choices then I (and people I asked who actually play a lot of marines) would bring which means a lot in the codex is viable, although it also means a lot in the codex is scary for opponents!
I was wondering a few things : - don't you think a company is a little too much drops for ITC, I found that too many units makes it easy for opponent to score kill and kill more and some of the secondaries - how will you deal with high toughness targets if your devestators get knocked down? As I don't see a lot of high str stuff (except for the smash captain I guess) - what is your setup with the captain, is he with agressors and banner and lt in the middle? - just a reminder for myself (can you shoot (with the fire when people deep strike strategem) at the unit which is deployed from the drop pod or only at the drop pods?
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Post by kazetanade on Sept 2, 2019 13:10:07 GMT
Well I will keep my personal opinion out of what I think about just taking (probably borrowing) armies to go to tournaments just because they are considered one of the strongest at the moment. I know people do it and I can understand why because if winning is the only goal it makes sense to bring the biggest gun. Same as the sad reality that people use loaded dice in high tier as it is almost impossible to control/check on tournaments. I will go overseas to Londen GT in 2 weeks and I already know there will be a lot of ultramarine lists (in addition to the chaos and eldar stuff), so I was building some marine lists (which I actually own a large army from but I prefer Tyranids) to see what I can expect. Its good to see that you have made a lot different choices then I (and people I asked who actually play a lot of marines) would bring which means a lot in the codex is viable, although it also means a lot in the codex is scary for opponents! I was wondering a few things : - don't you think a company is a little too much drops for ITC, I found that too many units makes it easy for opponent to score kill and kill more and some of the secondaries - how will you deal with high toughness targets if your devestators get knocked down? As I don't see a lot of high str stuff (except for the smash captain I guess) - what is your setup with the captain, is he with agressors and banner and lt in the middle? - just a reminder for myself (can you shoot (with the fire when people deep strike strategem) at the unit which is deployed from the drop pod or only at the drop pods? Ah, I was going to go with GSC but after extensive discussions and ultimately a coin flip, it was decided that it'd be more entertaining for everyone involved to see me try and play a UM army which I have no idea what I'm doing. >_> The guys are judges and they need a guinea pig to play their lists since they cant play, or I guess as much. It doesnt have so much to do with the army being strong. Your opinions about borrowing armies is legit though in my opinion, but we dont bother too much about that here. 1. It's got less drops than my GSC army so I'm already denying. The only thing they could get is Kill and Kill More off of it, but the fact that majority of these bodies can start anywhere on the board allows me unparalled board control and ability to take up prime hiding spots, and deny deepstrike to the enemy. They cant score Butchers Bill off of things they cant see, I have enough T1 or T2 drop power to put a dent in anything that could potentially get that LOS BB. What other secondaries can they go off my list? It's pretty much just MfD, good luck chewing through Transhuman and Tiggy. I got what I want and I got more than I gave, as per Mr. Hamilton. 2. Devestators kill 1, rerolling Sternguard kills the other, and the rest is by mechanical and technical skill to make them pointless. Since these are marine bodies, most of the big guns coming out wont be able to gun them down effectively (a Repulsor Executioner kills 3 marines, instead of 16 Acolytes), and this army is meant to be in their face anyway and hold the midground long enough that they cant come back. 3. Smash Cap is with the Aggressors and Intercessors, Cap is with the Devestators - likely the Capt is a Chap Master, so that drop(s) rerolls everything. Banner sits with the Intercessors and Aggressors, and Scouts - if the plan goes well, they're going to be right behind the Sternguards and the Devestators, meaning everything gets the zombie banner, in the midfield. 4. Drop Pod only from memory.
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Post by mrdodo on Sept 2, 2019 20:32:35 GMT
Ah that makes more sense. Sorry the scene where I am in is pretty hardcore so for no reason you begin to think that it happens everywhere. It is true that marines have crazy board control now.
I guess they can get headhunter maxed with your 5 characters, (MfD offcourse but this is in a lot of lists, as is butcher bill), pick your poison for bike squad, land speeder, whirlwind and yes tiggy (but that psyker kill will be the most difficult, still not undoable), big game hunter for the two whirlwinds and 2 droppods. Gangbusters would be 3 out of 4 for the agressor squad but not a bad pick as it should be a prime thing opponents want to remove anyway. So yeah enough options for secondaries, but yeah it is all about the gameplan of you and your opponent, but saying only MfD is possible, I think you are underestimating.
The anti armour argument feels like pretty tac in most situations, although I think lists like deathguard, chaos engines, eldar flyer/wave serpent spam (although flyers might get into trouble with all that board control) will be battles which depends on very finesse play instead of taking out the targets. This is just theorizing, I have no actual experience with your list. (even more reason I am curious how it will perform.)
Thanks for the clearup for your auras, I now see the table deployment and game plan a little more in front of me. Personally I try to stay away from auras (although I fully understand their power) as in my tactics I rather have the opportunity to move each unit the way I want to, instead of forcing some units to clump together.
my thinking, is the points worth it. For example to put a captain with the devestators. It will probably result in 4 more hits, which result in 2 more wounds, which result in 3/4 dmg. so you pay 77 points for 3/4 dmg average, which also include another killpoint and character for enemy to get. So 2 more devestators and no cap gives more output for less points giving away.
I can see in your case it also gives the rerolls for the sternguard, so yeah that ups its use and potential, but you can also get reroll 1's for 1 cp, which again I rather have, cause I can choose not to use it if I don't need it.
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Post by kazetanade on Sept 3, 2019 5:48:40 GMT
mrdodo thanks for your feedback. I didn't consider Pick Your Poison, so that's quite legit and potentially achievable. For the rest of the secondaries I don't think it is realistic to achieve - whirlwinds at the back out of los are not easy to kill. Headhunter is generally hard to get, as a gsc player I know you need to lose your whole army before headhunters come into play and I don't think Marines die as easily. So for the others I wasn't too worried I would give away too much. The captain/chap master also has the seal, hence becoming reroll hit and reroll wound for both units, thereby getting the powerful alphastrike needed to make the list work (I think). Transhuman on the Sternguard keeps them alive if need be to keep characters alive. Honestly I have no exp with it either, my first test game is tonight so I'll report back with results and thoughts.
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Post by mrdodo on Sept 8, 2019 7:43:21 GMT
So how did it go? 😉
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