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Post by kazetanade on Dec 13, 2017 4:18:45 GMT
Shockguard are variance nightmares. Everything relevant is d3 and they’re S7 -1 instead of S8 -2 and no cover. That’s before even accounting for 24” range and needing line of sight. Shock guard might have the highest *potential* output against tanks, but only against tanks. The exocrine has the overall best performance, with hive guard coming second. Very good points. The ShockGuard this list is specifically for anti-tank, as i have quite a load of anti-infantry fire here. Noted of course MC dont give a whit, but I'm not expecting a Primarch on the table in general (also, i think a primarch backed army is a perfect opportunity to stretch the list and see how well it can handle itself without a dedicated anti-primarch platform). Impalers and Exocrines do not jive with the list concept so were left out, but yes i do agree they are the much better overall shooting platform. Assuming the warrior drop actually can perform, any suggestion how to bring Exocrines or Impalers to keep them protected?
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Post by almostmercury on Dec 13, 2017 17:49:24 GMT
Shockguard are variance nightmares. Everything relevant is d3 and they’re S7 -1 instead of S8 -2 and no cover. That’s before even accounting for 24” range and needing line of sight. Shock guard might have the highest *potential* output against tanks, but only against tanks. The exocrine has the overall best performance, with hive guard coming second. Very good points. The ShockGuard this list is specifically for anti-tank, as i have quite a load of anti-infantry fire here. Noted of course MC dont give a whit, but I'm not expecting a Primarch on the table in general (also, i think a primarch backed army is a perfect opportunity to stretch the list and see how well it can handle itself without a dedicated anti-primarch platform). Impalers and Exocrines do not jive with the list concept so were left out, but yes i do agree they are the much better overall shooting platform. Assuming the warrior drop actually can perform, any suggestion how to bring Exocrines or Impalers to keep them protected? Well, I played a match against death guard without Mortarion on Sunday using a brigade and a supreme command. Supreme Command Leviathan 3x Flyrant with 2x Dev & HVC Brigade Kronos 3x Neurothrope 3x 3 Rippers 17 Termagants 18 Termagants 30 Termagants w/30 devs 2x 3 Hive Guard Lictor 2x Mucolid 3 Spore Mines 3x 1 Biovore My take aways were that lictors are hot garbage that serve no purpose outside of narrative play (where they are awesome). Rippers accomplish exactly what lictors can do. Your list has 8 objective graders that can’t kill anything. Hive Tyrants are incredibly durable now, but lack a bit with output. The HVC is... lacking even if playable. I have mixed feelings about hybrid tyrants now. My lists have always included at least one since codex and so far 4x devs has always done the most work. At least I’m playing them properly now. Spore mines are actually fantastic at blocking alpha strikes and filling brigades, mucolids obviously being ideal. I guess my theory crafting of your list after playing mine is that I feel like mine has more hitting power and I felt that it didn’t hit very hard. You’ve got 3 flyrants, shockguard, and warriors with output.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 14, 2017 18:00:34 GMT
The main difference is your hitting power is almost solely invested in shooting - my list looks like its light in power because approx 40% of it is invested in the warriors melee, hence Behemoth. If i make combat, i will probably outdamage you by a mile. That's also granted i make combat against something meaty, not just chaff. Chaff is melees nightmare anyway.
I managed to secure a game tomorrow for 2k, this is what I'm playing against:
4.0x Crows Of Antaeus Prime Craftworlds
Warlock Skyrunner: Craftworld (Alaitoc); Warlord Trait (Seer of Shifting Vector); Remnants of Glory (Phoenix Gem); Smite (Destructor); Protect/Jinx 70
Farseer Skyrunner: Craftworld (Alaitoc); Smite; Doom; Executioner 135
20 Guardian Defenders: Craftworld (Alaitoc) 160
5 Rangers: Craftworld (Alaitoc) 60
5 Rangers: Craftworld (Alaitoc) 60
Hemlock Wraithfighter: Craftworld (Alaitoc); Smite; Enhance/Drain 200
Allied Drukhari 5 Kabalite Trueborn: Dracon; 4 × blaster 115
5 Kabalite Trueborn: Dracon; 4 × blaster 115
Lhamean 18
Venom 65
Venom 65
Allied Harlequins Troupe Master: Fusion pistol; Harlequin's Caress 75
Troupe Master: Fusion pistol; Harlequin's Caress 75
Troupe Master: Fusion pistol; Harlequin's Caress 75
5 Troupe: 4 × Fusion pistol; 2 × Harlequin's Embrace; 2 × Harlequin's Caress 138
5 Troupe: 4 × Fusion pistol; 2 × Harlequin's Embrace; 2 × Harlequin's Caress 138
5 Troupe: 4 × Fusion pistol; 2 × Harlequin's Embrace; 2 × Harlequin's Caress 138
Starweaver 99
Starweaver 99
Starweaver 99
1,999 points
Its a good trial test. High vehicle saturation, high plasma/melta equivalent count, some psychic, and some chaff to push back deepstrike. First worry is the fusion effectiveness against pretty much the whole army (he has even less anti-infantry and far more anti-tank than i anticipated), but there isnt enough guns to target everything and kill enough to make a scary dent (theory of weapon type denial failed, but oversaturation passed) - especially since i get to drop first and unload everything at once.
Psychic spells will probably be a huge deciding factor - i regret not having Kronos for this game but the SitW coverage should be adequate and i wouldnt have used the Kronos warlord trait anyway. Not sure which spells are the playmakers but I'd wager Catalyst and Horror will be making an appearance. If only parroxysm still had hit modifiers but ehh.
I might change warlord trait to the always Hits unmodified one, i may need to shoot and charge the flier (but with that overwatch... probably not). Alternatively, i may give him rerolls vs harlequins and send him a-hunting instead. Rerolls of Hit vs an army that forces -1(dont know if it applies in melee or not) is still very useful even if diminished compared to +1A.
Lictors look bad but if i get 1 into each Alaitoc Ranger unit, that takes them all out of the game. I may not kill them at once but they shouldn't kill the lictors either. If the seer is exposed I'm definitely ganging up all 3 on him.
Hopefully the game is not a wipeout for either.
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Post by almostmercury on Dec 14, 2017 21:00:33 GMT
It doesn't apply in melee. In fact it only applies outside of 12" just like Raven Guard and Ghostkeels.
Lictors don't look bad, they are bad and Alaitoc Rangers (they're the sniper scouts right?) aren't that impressive if they're hunting things T5+. I mean, you can get lucky and roll 6s, but you can also get unlucky and miss.
If nearly half of my hitting power was locked into warriors... I would feel uncomfortable outside of ideal conditions. But, it seems you want to try something and that's cool.
My warning is that you may find it hits like a wet noddle. Actually, you're playing Eldar, so they die when you slap them with noodles. The question will be whether you survive the shooting to noodle them.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 15, 2017 2:26:39 GMT
almostmercury actually i meant the Venoms StarWeavers and Harlequins - i know their army has an innate -1 somewhere, and i dont if those apply in melee. Like if Harlequins get a 4++ and pseudofly and run+charge and a -1 or something. Will find out at location Yea the list is testing out warriors and midbugs survivability in general - i draw a blank when thinking of warriors effectiveness on the table so i need some samples. I already have a working list that has 90% power tied up in shooting, so i want to explore more balanced options. This is just the middle of the road to test everything I'm not sure of at once. If it works for warriors... shrikes are really good as well. But i opted not to use shrikes just yet since i also want to test the Jormungandr murder drop concept and get a feel how disappointing or how good it can be, and what is its major pitfalls. Also the last bit is to test the lictors. I will need to run them into marines as well to be sure - but this isnt a bad test game to see. The biovore looked bad until people realized its potential, lictors may have something there people aren't seeing yet. Many things in the Nid codex is bad, like really terrible in singulars. Hive Tyrants are bad in singulars - Terms/Horms/Gargs are bad in min squads, biovores are bad in singulars, genestealers are bad in min squads, trygons and mawlocs are bad in singulars. Carnies are bad in singulars. All of these options get better as you have more of them or of similar types to them. So not really discounting the lictor yet. Edit: actually a pretty comprehensive outline of what I'm doing is on page 1 post 2. Wall of text but pretty much every important decision and change is up there for my ease of reference in the future. Edit: also, 40% is kinda an eyeball gauge thing. Its actually a lot less since there's a fair bit of points in the Trygon and 3 HTs and Shockguard. The Warrior squad costs 333 points, the HTs + Trygon will be nearly 800 points (definitely more than double) then there's the shockguard for another 240 thereabouts and a fair 180 tied up in Gargoyles for tying things up and smashing things with the charge/die for mortal wounds strategems.
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Post by No One on Dec 15, 2017 2:58:35 GMT
almostmercury actually i meant the Venoms StarWeavers and Harlequins - i know their army has an innate -1 somewhere, and i dont if those apply in melee. Like if Harlequins get a 4++ and pseudofly and run+charge and a -1 or something. Will find out at location Venoms and starweavers have innate -1 against shooting only I'm pretty sure. I don't believe harlequins themselves have any way to get a -1 to hit (maybe psychics?), though they can get -1 to wound (which they didn't bring).
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 15, 2017 20:37:42 GMT
Harlequins are pretty strong. >_> The starweavers have a 3+/4++ and -1 to Hit, and the Venoms have -1 to Hit and 5++; the Harlequins not only advance and charge, but they also fall back and shoot and charge, they fly without flying, and have a 4++ that can be boosted to a 3++ via spells (although this may have been wrong - it was a craftworld spell afterall).
All the Alaitocs and the Drukhari barely did anything to me - the Harlequins alone destroyed most of my list, killing 3 Flyrants themselves over 2 turns and the entire Warrior unit (and soon to be Trygon), having 4 Troupe models left and 1 Troupe Master by the end of things, all the other parts killed were the Hive Guard at the end of the game. I had a hell lot of Rippers and spore mines, but the spore mines couldnt do much since everyone flew over them.
Thoughts and changes -
1. Warriors did nothing. Issues with LOS - The guns arent enough. They need to hit melee to be useful. The game only reinforced this. LOS issues were big this game, so will try them again - but the impression is really terrible.
2. Behemoth, never again. Never again. Gonna move things to Jormungandr or Leviathan.
3. Prime needs to come in with Jormungandr.
4. Kronos is too important - it has to be in every list from now on. With either Flyrants or Biovores or both.
5. Melee alphastrikes must have Swarmlord - a guaranteed charge is too important.
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Post by nidzy on Dec 15, 2017 23:36:04 GMT
Harlequins are pretty strong. >_> The starweavers have a 3+/4++ and -1 to Hit, and the Venoms have -1 to Hit and 5++; the Harlequins not only advance and charge, but they also fall back and shoot and charge, they fly without flying, and have a 4++ that can be boosted to a 3++ via spells (although this may have been wrong - it was a craftworld spell afterall). All the Alaitocs and the Drukhari barely did anything to me - the Harlequins alone destroyed most of my list, killing 3 Flyrants themselves over 2 turns and the entire Warrior unit (and soon to be Trygon), having 4 Troupe models left and 1 Troupe Master by the end of things, all the other parts killed were the Hive Guard at the end of the game. I had a hell lot of Rippers and spore mines, but the spore mines couldnt do much since everyone flew over them. Thoughts and changes - 1. Warriors did nothing. Issues with LOS - The guns arent enough. They need to hit melee to be useful. The game only reinforced this. LOS issues were big this game, so will try them again - but the impression is really terrible. 2. Behemoth, never again. Never again. Gonna move things to Jormungandr or Leviathan. 3. Prime needs to come in with Jormungandr. 4. Kronos is too important - it has to be in every list from now on. With either Flyrants or Biovores or both. 5. Melee alphastrikes must have Swarmlord - a guaranteed charge is too important. I think the 3++ comes from advancing and using a 1cp stratagem from CA that lets a unit that advance have a 3++. Very solid with rising cacophony(I think that is the right special rule) that lets the advance and charge happen. One spell they have can give -1 to hit to a unit, another that lets them move a second time. If I were more confident in my free hand painting skills I would start a harlequin army. I already own a solitaire so I may still try it out, but all of the designs being free hand is a big limitation for my awkward bumble fingers. Kronos is flat out good on a gunline especially if you are mixing fleets. I think a mono Jorg list has a lot of merit, but in mixing fleets Kronos offers the best gunline we have to offer. The stratagem makes some kind of DS or spore mine generating Kronos an auto include IMO though. I haven't played against harlequins in 8th ed but I think they are a helluva match up for some of our looks. 20+ melta pistols that don't mind at all walking right up to you is a nighmare for any MC and no fun for any warrior sized infantry. Genestealer spam, and lots of bodies in general should do well, but they shred MC's and otherwise fight as good or better than stealers on a per model basis and the universal -1 to hit inside of transports is ugly for our shooting.
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Post by No One on Dec 16, 2017 2:28:55 GMT
(although this may have been wrong - it was a craftworld spell afterall). Yep: it affects Asuryani (i.e. Craftworlds), not Aeldari (i.e. Eldar).
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 16, 2017 4:07:06 GMT
(although this may have been wrong - it was a craftworld spell afterall). Yep: it affects Asuryani (i.e. Craftworlds), not Aeldari (i.e. Eldar). No Nidzy is right it was a strategem. He didnt have a spell to boost saves cuz he used Jinx on my Flyrant instead. nidzy Kronos is too important for their strategem. Having that cast on 1 die would have helped the Flyrant survive since he got tagged with both Doom and Jinx and fail deny on everything. The melta gun was painful but i lost the warrior squad to melee - 16 attacks of S4 and S5 destroyed 16 wounds by themselves. Fusion broke another 8. The last guy was gunned down by the craftworld pseudo rending. The alaitoc flyer is indeed a bit of a danger. He didnt do a lot this game but he has a lot of potential. 2d3, S12, -4ap flat 2; all it really took out was 2 HG or 3HG and a lictor. Its very strong against the midbugs, but isnt as scary against mass MC or mass Infantry. He'd be very scary to lists with limited MC though. I made some large changes to the alphastrike list - for beginners everything is moved into Jormungandr instead of being in Behemoth, aiming for the sit and tank a round. I am giving up on Hybrid Flyrants with Dev/MRC, as it does make them jack of all trades proficient in none. They are the best platform for double devs so I'll leave majority double devs on them. HVC still yet to be seen though - HVC + MRC could be a tank popper for when you really need to kill a predator or leman russ instead off a razorback transport or StarWeavers. Lictors have potential but they really are hard to be effective - i would need to drop other things first and let them come in under other stronger things. This game i dropped them early on the rangers to try and bait his movement (which half worked - he didnt need to move his to shoot them since the flyer could have. But he did.) More biovores. Definitely bringing 6 just for mortal wounds and flexibility. But really the biovores just lacked impact vs Fly units.
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Post by almostmercury on Dec 16, 2017 4:24:21 GMT
Fly is why you don’t go too overboard with Biovores. They still create problems through the Kronos stratagem and eventually cause some wounds. You can make it awkward by placing them far enough back, but true flyers will just zoom over them unless the board is ridiculously saturated. Right now I’m toying with 5.
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Post by nidzy on Dec 16, 2017 6:06:51 GMT
Yep: it affects Asuryani (i.e. Craftworlds), not Aeldari (i.e. Eldar). No Nidzy is right it was a strategem. He didnt have a spell to boost saves cuz he used Jinx on my Flyrant instead. nidzy Kronos is too important for their strategem. Having that cast on 1 die would have helped the Flyrant survive since he got tagged with both Doom and Jinx and fail deny on everything. The melta gun was painful but i lost the warrior squad to melee - 16 attacks of S4 and S5 destroyed 16 wounds by themselves. Fusion broke another 8. The last guy was gunned down by the craftworld pseudo rending. The alaitoc flyer is indeed a bit of a danger. He didnt do a lot this game but he has a lot of potential. 2d3, S12, -4ap flat 2; all it really took out was 2 HG or 3HG and a lictor. Its very strong against the midbugs, but isnt as scary against mass MC or mass Infantry. He'd be very scary to lists with limited MC though. I made some large changes to the alphastrike list - for beginners everything is moved into Jormungandr instead of being in Behemoth, aiming for the sit and tank a round. I am giving up on Hybrid Flyrants with Dev/MRC, as it does make them jack of all trades proficient in none. They are the best platform for double devs so I'll leave majority double devs on them. HVC still yet to be seen though - HVC + MRC could be a tank popper for when you really need to kill a predator or leman russ instead off a razorback transport or StarWeavers. Lictors have potential but they really are hard to be effective - i would need to drop other things first and let them come in under other stronger things. This game i dropped them early on the rangers to try and bait his movement (which half worked - he didnt need to move his to shoot them since the flyer could have. But he did.) More biovores. Definitely bringing 6 just for mortal wounds and flexibility. But really the biovores just lacked impact vs Fly units. Miasma cannon has been big for me on a flyrant. I really like running him aggressive with smite and psychic scream plus whatever utility power you want, but his output gets silly when you throw a reroll in somewhere with that combo, whether it is to get a second "smite" off or to go for 2+ hits or to make a second hit with miasma wound. He has paid off for me big time as people tend to ignore it when the 24 dev shots from the other flyrant are putting out wounds like crazy on infantry. Kronos is so important. I would run my firebase as Jorg, but the combination of Hive guard/exocrines rerolling ones AND having that strat out there is huge.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 18, 2017 5:56:35 GMT
OK, had another game over the weekend, this time against a pseudo "meta" army - AL Cultists + Oblitz and DP nonsense.
I asked for the list but he forgot to give it to me, so going off memory it was:
HQs 1 DP 1 Chaos Lord 1 Sorc Lord 1 Chaplain equiv - reroll hits in combat
Troops 1 x 40 man Cultist 5 x 10 man Cultists
Elites 1 x Lieutenant guy that gives full reroll wounds 1 x 5 Terminators with Power Maul/Sword and Storm Bolters 3 x 1 Chaos Spawn
FA Nil
HS 2 x 3 Oblitz 1 x Havok with Heavy Bolters
SURPRISE!!!!! Reinforcements 30 x Bloodletters
The modified list (which I didnt have time to put online in the first page was as follows:
Detachment: Jormungandr Brigade HQs 1 x Neuro 1 x Tyranid Prime 1 x Walkrant with HVC/MRC only
Troops 5 x Rippers 1 x 9 Warriors with 6DS/3VC/9BS/ AG
Elites 1 x 5 Venomthropes 1 x 6 Shockguard 1 x 1 Lictor
FA 1 x 3 Raveners 2 x Spore Mines
HS 3 x Biovores
Detachment: Kronos Spearhead HQs 2 x HTs with Devs/Devs/Wings. ( 1 is Warlord with ignore hit penalties) 3 x Biovores
Summary Batrep: We still play deploy first go first due to CA not overwritting base rulebook - doesnt matter too much in the long run so I just roll with it. So AL, despite having a huge wad of units, still goes first considering I had 22 drops in total I think. The game ended in T3. The board had decent cover and LOS (6 Ruins, 2 big bastion tower things in the midfield blocking different quadrants, two tower rock formations blocking the other midfield opposite quadrants, the dead centre was empty. Deployment was Eternal War (deploy on long edge) and mission was Big Guns Never Tire.
T1 was the standard affair - Infiltrating Cultists up into your face and 3" away to try and lock me in. Oblitz in reserve waiting for the big guns to come out. Chaos Termies in reserve (but came out to play after my deployment oddly) I deployed nothing but Biovores, Rippers, Sporemines, and my Jormungandr Cannon HT in the corner - I misdeployed him in that I put him too close to the line, but that worked the way I wanted it to since it baited him into throwing down the 40 man Cultists right there and making him drop his Terminator squad and the DP and the 2 support HQs as close as he could. T1 I basically ate Cultists with double shoot, reroll 1s to hit, +1Wound. I managed to deny Prescience and Warp Time with Kronos and SitW to prevent the DP getting a T1 charge, and to let the 40 man reroll everything which would have hurt. He shot and charged 2 Biovores, 3 Ripper units, and the Cannon - not 1 unit died in the whole turn. Jormungandr ftw.
During my T1, things were trickier - he advanced the chaos spawn up to the centrefield to deny my deepstrike, leaving me only my deployment zone pretty much to drop the warriors down into. I knew 2 things: I knew warriors needed to make combat to be any good, so I needed the midfield position, and I knew his Oblitz had 24" gun range and were the biggest threat on the table - I either baited them out on a Flyrant and dropped in death on them, or I baited his Oblitz into a corner and neutralize them for the rest of the game. The middle of the table wasnt saturated but it was difficult to get a drop - like mentioned, chaos spawn were advanced up to the centrefield. He was really meticulous about leaving no space behind him to deepstrike in on. I could only find a space on the far corner where a Flyrant could fit, and a Flyrant in the same extreme flank. The big drop would only be able to fit right outside my own deployment. I decided to delay the big drop and bring in the Flyrants to clear all the chaff - at the same time I would make it both unappetizing to drop the Oblitz near the centre, by leaving spores everywhere to make the drop difficult, while the extreme flank would give him clear and easy access to the "threats" of the Flyrants, so encouraging him to drop into the extreme flank. I would after that drop outside 24", Fly the Flyrants away, and leave them there to rot.
Dropping in the Flyrants, most things went according to plan - cleared everything but 2 Cultists (the 2 cultists ended up being a slight issue for my drop, so I didnt get the closer to his table edge that I wanted. No real loss though) and spore mine'd near the congragation to stop them advancing in to block me out again. Combat was effy, since the whole big group of 3 rippers 2 biovores and 1 tyrant was in combat but barely anything died - from his side and mine. I whiffed Catalyst and Psychic Scream and a smite - peril'ed on the successful smite (that dealt 1 damage, and 2 to myself) and peril'ed on a whiff. Greaaaat. Whatever.
T2 was horrendous - the Oblitz dopped down exactly where I wanted them - in the extreme flank of the table. But their shooting and his dice was so hot - only 2 units came down, but each Flyrant had to take 6 or 7 saves. Veterans of the Long War on the unit with S7, both the units did 3Dam, then the mark of slaanesh shoot twice came out - both Flyrants died on the spot, and I lost a biovore in the process. His DP finally made it into combat with my Walkrant, hitting hard and leaving him on 1 wound whereas I left him on 5 or 3 from the MRC.
On my turn 2 I knew I had to clear the side of the board his congregation was on. My Warriors could wipe the 40 man squad in combat - I needed the DS to kill most of the remaining 2 chaff Cultists, and the VC + HG to whittle down the Terminator squad to 3 models left. I would then need to make combat, kill the 40 man squad and then re-activate to pile in and kill the terminators + chaos lord, then I would be able to recover the game. In my haste I forgot my psychic phase - which proves to be both stupid and damaging but meh. Shooting phase I just gave up - I threw 36 + 3 DS shots at him, together with 6D3 S7 -1AP D3Dam, together with 6d3 S8 -2 D3dam, and only 10 cultists and 1 Terminator died. The DS rolls were terrible missing more than 2/3 of the first volley, and the HG+VCs just didnt force the wounds without -3AP which is stupid since they actually had above average shots and hits.
Then the warriors failed charge. I charged the Neurothrope into the last chaos spawn just because, which again proved to be a mistake - interrupt strategem and he finished off the walkrant. Paroxysm or Horror would have kept me alive but I forgot about the Interrupt.
Top of Turn 3 he summoned in 20 Bloodletters in surprise, and I conceded because I just didnt want to play anymore after the warriors whiffed every game they've been in. If I had pressed on, there was a very good chance we could come back into the game, but I thought the Termies had D3dam weapons and with a reroll to hit and reroll to wound just behind them my Warrior squad is dead.
Thoughts and Conclusions 1. Flyrants with dev/dev is > Dev/MRC, no contest. Potentially > HVC/MRC. The ability to come down and wipe half the map clean for my drop was very important for my setup, something that Dev/MRC would have failed to do.
2. HG with SHock Cannons - considering how the VCs rolled above average, I'm quite sure Impaler Cannons would not have made a significance to the story. Shockguard are really good IMO. Extremely underrated. If you plan to sit still or just hide then Impaler Cannons are better, but if you have a single Burrower then I'd consider using Shockguard instead and see how it performs.
3. I've ditched the Warriors concept. They're okay in general, and twice if I could make combat I am certain the game would have been very different. But if I need to use Swarmlord to guarantee their charge, I am bringing Genestealers instead. Warriors are pointless in an alphastrike list and are outclassed almost everyway by Shrikes. Maybe 18 Warriors could work - but right now I'd bring other things.
4. Having lots of chaff was pretty good - I need a better way to saturate the board on demand. Meiotic spores, Sporocytes, and other infiltrators would be really annoying.
5. Mid Bugs as a concept doesnt feel viable. Using anti-infantry guns on them is as effective as chaff on every 3 wounds, anti-tank guns are only a little less effective. So you give up practical immunity against one or the other, for a slightly increased resillience against both.
6. I would have to change my mind about Biovores. 1-3 arent really anything to shout home about and may not be worth the investment. 4+ definitely is. Previously I considered them always worth the investment.
7. I really dont know how to do with the lictors. At this point I'm seriously considering single Pyrovores and just leave them around the DZ and walk around and be annoying. Even Rippers in Behemoth can do their job better, I think (not really, but butthurt).
8. The Jormungandr deathdrop footprint is too huge. It became a problem in 2 games where I could NOT get an angle to shoot in the first and limited my drop space in the 2nd. Having multiple stages to a drop feels better as well compared to the bring it all in at once and pray for the best. Especially depending on the drop mechanics with their 9" distance restrictions, having multiple drops feels key because the first drop really needs to Open up space, and the 2nd drop really needs to punch harder against whatever they're having. The first drop can either be Flyrants which performed really well, or Devourer Gants which I know perform really well too. What is in the 2nd and 3rd drops? Havent decided... Shockguard and Genestealers maybe. I want like 12 of those Shockguards working now. It's only 600 points for 12 Shockguard and 30 Devilgants and I suspect with double the performance of 18 Warriors who will cost the same. The lack of reliance on combat is really refreshing. Do I even need Venomthropes with this?
9. Upon reconsideration of the Alaitoc Flyer, I think it's kinda safe to have 1 Hybrid Flyrant and the rest DakkaFlyrants.
10. CP regen - Urgh. Gotta work hard to bring it in.
I will update the front page with some of this once I got a new list to replace it with.
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Post by kazetanade on Dec 18, 2017 19:01:20 GMT
New list is up - Unfortunately no CP Regen is involved, as I didnt know how to incorporate it and keep the amount of damage dealt the same. Also, even less chaff than before, which means I am ceding my ability to control the map. This list will probably have to play smarter, but it's better designed to tackle multiple problems.
In very quick summary:
It's 2 sets of Shockguard + Devilgants + Raveners, with a 3rd set of Raveners + Genestealers + Broodlord coming up for body and threat saturation, back by Biovore bombardment and Neurothrope(?) advancement. The first drop comes in to clear up pretty much all the chaff - the Hive Guard comes in to blow up vehicles and transports, primarily. If I can somehow find a way to place both shooting units down at the same time, and I'm confident in wiping out the dangerous elements all in one go, then I will. Otherwise I will use each individual drop as the bait for his power unit, then have the Genestealers finish up once the shooters are done.
CP is tight, as in REALLY tight in this list. At first glance I create 13cp to start, but something like 6 or 7 are used up before the game begins. If I'm desperate for CP I could drop the Neurothropes giving Synapse to them to gain another +1 or +2.
Overall this should be a safe list to go 2nd with - safe and consistent damage (a little random on the d3 shots d3 dam, but can always be exchanged to Impalers by trading to a 4+ to hit instead (or Onslaught which works just as well!), with a strong follow up to end the game, and denying the enemy any good use of their fusion/lascannon/melta. If this list works satisfactorily, I will call it a success on proof of concept and start work on a Competition list to bring in January. The rulespack is not available so we dont know if its going to be ITC, Maelstrom, EW, or some weird funky self-serve nonsense. But if I dont get started on a list now I wont get anything painted in time.
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Post by almostmercury on Dec 18, 2017 19:53:11 GMT
No screens?
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