|
Post by shadowfinder on Nov 6, 2017 2:09:04 GMT
I cant seem to find on this thread if the strength of normal Deathspitters have changed at all? Are the S 5? They are Str 5 still.
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Nov 6, 2017 2:29:00 GMT
That's what I said. Tyrant, with 5 attacks but one of them has to be from a tail is EXACTLY the same in combat as a Tyrant with 4 attacks getting a bonus attack from it's tail. EXACTLY the same. The difference isn't in what it does on the table top. The difference is that you don't want to use an attack with a bad weapon. So what happens? They change it. It's still exactly the same effectiveness and you feel better about not having to use an attack from the profile, even though you have 1 fewer attacks. That's design, bud. Did the Trygon/Mawloc guys lose an Attack as well? And Carnifexen? If they didnt, then there's a functional difference. There's also that special Prime tail that allowed you to use all your attacks on it to curb trashpleb wrap instead, is it 1 attack now and hence much worse?
|
|
|
Post by niiai on Nov 6, 2017 2:41:28 GMT
That's what I said. Tyrant, with 5 attacks but one of them has to be from a tail is EXACTLY the same in combat as a Tyrant with 4 attacks getting a bonus attack from it's tail. EXACTLY the same. The difference isn't in what it does on the table top. The difference is that you don't want to use an attack with a bad weapon. So what happens? They change it. It's still exactly the same effectiveness and you feel better about not having to use an attack from the profile, even though you have 1 fewer attacks. That's design, bud. Did the Trygon/Mawloc guys lose an Attack as well? And Carnifexen? If they didnt, then there's a functional difference. There's also that special Prime tail that allowed you to use all your attacks on it to curb trashpleb wrap instead, is it 1 attack now and hence much worse? I think there is a psykological thing going on here, and a mixture of teminolagy. Did all of the units that had tail weapons loose 1 on their attack characteristic. Yes. Did the number of attacks they in close combat go down? No. Is it harder to misplay under the new rule? Yes. Is the new rule less confusing during matched played then the old wording? Yes. Every one that had a tail attack before had a line that said 'One, and only one, attack must be made with the tail weapon.' Now instead they have tail weapon that gives you an extra attack. Note, I am not sure if this is stil true for carnofexes. One of the carnifex weapon, treasure scythe, was optional and you could use it multiple times. While the bone mace was not.
|
|
|
Post by No One on Nov 6, 2017 2:46:09 GMT
There's also that special Prime tail that allowed you to use all your attacks on it to curb trashpleb wrap instead, is it 1 attack now and hence much worse? Do you mean the fex tail (i.e. the D3 attacks)? Which is one attack for D3 only now, yes. The prime one - well, even at current the rattle is pretty meh at wrap killing: the morale penalty is capped at 1, so...not actually sure the specifics of the codex version, but I'd basically never use more than 1 attack on it now anyway. Did all of the units that had tail weapons loose 1 on their attack characteristic. Yes. No. I think that all of the ones who had mandatory tail weapons did (i.e. flyrants with prehensile pincer), but I know that fexes didn't lose an attack on profile, and I believe that trygons didn't either (so they gained an attack, since they couldn't get the biostatic rattle, unlike the prime). So fexes don't need to take thresher (which is...still 7 pts apparently, for reasons) to get their full 4 attacks base, and can just run without a tail completely.
|
|
|
Post by niiai on Nov 6, 2017 3:01:22 GMT
Did all of the units that had tail weapons loose 1 on their attack characteristic. Yes. No. I think that all of the ones who had mandatory tail weapons did (i.e. flyrants with prehensile pincer), but I know that fexes didn't lose an attack on profile, and I believe that trygons didn't either (so they gained an attack, since they couldn't get the biostatic rattle, unlike the prime). So fexes don't need to take thresher (which is...still 7 pts apparently, for reasons) to get their full 4 attacks base, and can just run without a tail completely. I comment on the fexes further down since it is not a clear cut no yes based on what tail weapon you are talking about. One was mandatory, one was not. When you are doing a bad job of citing me, and then say the same thing that I say back to me you are building a straw man of me. Please do not. Fexes now have the option to buy tail wepaons to get more attacks in addition to their attack. The net sum of attack on fexes did not go down, except for the people who ran a dakkafex with tresher scythe to charge all attacks into a tresher attack. I don't know how many attacks the trygon have in the new codex. But if you are talking about the biostatick rattle, first the trygon could not take it. Only the trygon prime could take it. Second, what was good about the biostatick rattle was that it was not mandatory, allowing your trygon prime to use all attacks on their scything tallons. Although, the biostatic rattle costed a lot, so you are basicly buying an extra attack. The rattle was quite bad, except when you did not use it. It comes back to the carnifex choosing not to use a tresher scythe in melle to keep it's high S attack.
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Nov 6, 2017 3:04:38 GMT
Which means there was a functional change, and the Flyrant was nerfed in the process. Honestly though they got a lot more out of the total package so I'm not unhappy about it.
Its a good change
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Nov 6, 2017 3:09:29 GMT
No. I think that all of the ones who had mandatory tail weapons did (i.e. flyrants with prehensile pincer), but I know that fexes didn't lose an attack on profile, and I believe that trygons didn't either (so they gained an attack, since they couldn't get the biostatic rattle, unlike the prime). So fexes don't need to take thresher (which is...still 7 pts apparently, for reasons) to get their full 4 attacks base, and can just run without a tail completely. I comment on the fexes further down since it is not a clear cut no yes based on what tail weapon you are talking about. One was mandatory, one was not. When you are doing a bad job of citing me, and then say the same thing that I say back to me you are building a straw man of me. Please do not. Fexes now have the option to buy tail wepaons to get more attacks in addition to their attack. The net sum of attack on fexes did not go down, except for the people who ran a dakkafex with tresher scythe to charge all attacks into a tresher attack. I don't know how many attacks the trygon have in the new codex. But if you are talking about the biostatick rattle, first the trygon could not take it. Only the trygon prime could take it. Second, what was good about the biostatick rattle was that it was not mandatory, allowing your trygon prime to use all attacks on their scything tallons. Although, the biostatic rattle costed a lot, so you are basicly buying an extra attack. The rattle was quite bad, except when you did not use it. It comes back to the carnifex choosing not to use a tresher scythe in melle to keep it's high S attack. To make it simple for you, no not every model with tail attacks lost 1 attack. It looks like only the HT did. Therefore it is not purely psychological change, it is a mechanical one that has an impact on the game. Nothing in the reply is making you a straw man. Its just saying you were not 100% correct.
|
|
|
Post by niiai on Nov 6, 2017 3:11:26 GMT
Which means there was a functional change, and the Flyrant was nerfed in the process. Honestly though they got a lot more out of the total package so I'm not unhappy about it. Its a good change What do you mean that there was a functional change? Especially when you lead with the claim that the flyrant was nerfed in the process. This makes little sence. First, the flyrant got +1T and +2W up to T7 and 12W. This is not a nerf. More importantly though the number of attacks / tail attacks did not get a functional change. In the old index he would have 5 attacks. 1 that must be a tail attack. 4 attacks with his melee weapon. + 1 and only 1 attack with his tail weapon. 5 attacks total. Now he will have 4 atacks, and an extra attack that must be a tail attack. 4 attacks with his melee weapon. + 1 and only 1 attack with his tail weapon. 5 attacks total. Where is the nerf you are talking about? Edit: kazetanade you are not making a straw man of my argument, you are just disagreing with me. 'No One' is the one quoting me wrong.
|
|
|
Post by No One on Nov 6, 2017 3:17:39 GMT
I comment on the fexes further down since it is not a clear cut no yes based on what tail weapon you are talking about. One was mandatory, one was not. When you are doing a bad job of citing me, and then say the same thing that I say back to me you are building a straw man of me. Please do not. ...There's a reason I mentioned the trygon? As in, the only one I know went down is flyrant (and swarmy), and I think mawloc and crone likely went down as well. When the only knowns (to the best of my knowledge: I'm sure the people who actually have codex access/have seen the leaked images can offer more accurate info) are that one went down and one stayed the same? A general 'no' is inaccurate. If you don't want me to 'straw man' you (I don't even know what that is, but I'm pretty sure I didn't do it), don't make absolute statements that aren't true (and that you know aren't true at least vis a vis fex - yes, you did mention, but still) and can't comment on the accuracy with respect to everything bar one unit . ...That's my point, sort of? As in, I'm almost positive someone's mentioned that trygons stayed the same number of attacks (though they might've just misread/mispoke and it's just trygon primes): since they always lost a tail attack now, and don't in Codex? They went up. Fexes had to pay for scythe for their full attacks: now they don't. Prime had to pay for rattle: now it doesn't. Which means there was a functional change, and the Flyrant was nerfed in the process. Very niche buff actually: you can now choose not to use the tail attack. Useful when you've wrapped something and don't want to kill it.
|
|
|
Post by Davor on Nov 6, 2017 3:26:23 GMT
I have no idea what warlord trait or relic to put in that army. Mine are painted as leviathan, so the norn crown is out of the question. Any suggestion to warlord trait and relic? Why is the Norn Crown out of the question? All you said is your colours are Leviathan, you didn't say you were playing as Leviathan. If playing a different fleet it doesn't matter the colour. Maybe that white is snow. Or they fell in wet paint . Or it's what ever. Colour doesn't matter. Now if you are playing as Hive Fleet Leviathan, then what I said is a moot point. Davor *edit* Doh. Didn't see there was another page. I see you said you are playing Leviathan, not just colour scheme. Forget what I said.
|
|
|
Post by Osedaxx on Nov 6, 2017 3:28:20 GMT
Any word on the points value of regular Zoanthropes and Min squad size? Trying to see if the Psychic Barrage is worth maxing out.
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Nov 6, 2017 3:28:29 GMT
Which means there was a functional change, and the Flyrant was nerfed in the process. Honestly though they got a lot more out of the total package so I'm not unhappy about it. Its a good change What do you mean that there was a functional change? Especially when you lead with the claim that the flyrant was nerfed in the process. This makes little sence. First, the flyrant got +1T and +2W up to T7 and 12W. This is not a nerf. More importantly though the number of attacks / tail attacks did not get a functional change. In the old index he would have 5 attacks. 1 that must be a tail attack. 4 attacks with his melee weapon. + 1 and only 1 attack with his tail weapon. 5 attacks total. Now he will have 4 atacks, and an extra attack that must be a tail attack. 4 attacks with his melee weapon. + 1 and only 1 attack with his tail weapon. 5 attacks total. Where is the nerf you are talking about? Edit: kazetanade you are not making a straw man of my argument, you are just disagreing with me. 'No One' is the one quoting me wrong. I did speak on behalf of No One when talking about straw men. No person is making a straw man out of anyone. Right, there is a functional change here because other tail users such as the Fex, the Trygon, and Trygon Prime, did not lose an Attack in the process of the Tail Attack changes. So far I've only noted HTs and Crones (i assume the wicked spurr is a tail attack) having lost attacks. Therefore, relative to other Tail users, the Crone and the HT got a nerf, because they actually lost 1 Attack to use their main weapom with, when others did not. However, the HT has so many other buff changes that the overall package is great, and he performs the same as before, so i dont even mind at all. IF, every tail user had a -1A, then the change would be purely psychological (unless we take into account tails that had special effects and could be used more than once, which makes it a nerf for those tails. Like thresher).
|
|
|
Post by niiai on Nov 6, 2017 3:31:10 GMT
I have no idea what warlord trait or relic to put in that army. Mine are painted as leviathan, so the norn crown is out of the question. Any suggestion to warlord trait and relic? Why is the Norn Crown out of the question? All you said is your colours are Leviathan, you didn't say you were playing as Leviathan. If playing a different fleet it doesn't matter the colour. Maybe that white is snow. Or they fell in wet paint . Or it's what ever. Colour doesn't matter. Now if you are playing as Hive Fleet Leviathan, then what I said is a moot point. Davor *edit* Doh. Didn't see there was another page. I see you said you are playing Leviathan, not just colour scheme. Forget what I said. No problemo. I think I must chew the choise over a bit. I think most of the relics are meant for having a hive tyrant. During spoilers season I was hoping there was possible form a prime to take some form of ranged gun.
|
|
|
Post by kazetanade on Nov 6, 2017 3:31:18 GMT
Any word on the points value of regular Zoanthropes and Min squad size? Trying to see if the Psychic Barrage is worth maxing out. I think it was said no change. So 120 for min squad and 240 for max. 360 min for PB.
|
|
|
Post by autoxidation on Nov 6, 2017 3:31:35 GMT
Any word on the points value of regular Zoanthropes and Min squad size? Trying to see if the Psychic Barrage is worth maxing out.
|
|