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Post by bolk on Nov 3, 2017 20:46:29 GMT
Is it worth trying out Deathspitter Carnifexs or keep the Brainleech Devourers right now? Might magnetize a squad up Depends on if Devourers are 24" now like Deathspitters (is this confirmed?). If DS have better range, they can be worth it.
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Post by able on Nov 3, 2017 20:59:30 GMT
Acid maw is pretty good (asumming it's the reputed 10 points?) and definitely puts them back into a nice genralist slot but, if you're getting more mileage out of acid maw on your dakkafexes than the +1 to hit on them, something has gone way sideways with your deployment, strategy, and game in general. Not necessarily, because no plan survives contact with the enemy. If the enemy has opted into 4 turns of melee with an acid maw carnifex that doesn't mean that the guns are wasted. It means that the guns have gotten you 4 turns of the enemy answering them, and you got something else in exchange. We have no way of falling back and shooting with dakka fexes, and no reliable way of holding enemies in combat with our melee fexes. An acid maw dakkafex looks like a solid soft tarpit unit, because if the enemy falls back from it; it will punish with shooting. In a kraken force, you get to choose who it bad touches, and it will do decent damage too. In a sense, the acid maw is the primary weapon when used like this, because we don't expect the enemy to let us use the guns. The guns are there to make sure they stay in combat, which is the plan. In this case the plan is going sideways if we are getting to shoot every turn, so the acid maw should be the better choice. The idea is to make the melee option equally as bad as the ranged one, so that even when the enemy gets to choose we don't get a terrible result. I tend not to run gunline lists, so maybe I would use them differently from you. I do think you are neglecting the fact that the enemy has some choice in the matter though.
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Post by jesses on Nov 3, 2017 21:15:28 GMT
According to the Warhammer Community article Venomthropes now do D3 damage. If that is the case (and I really hope it is) I will be severely cheesed off if Toxicrene's still only do D3 as well.
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Post by Iryan on Nov 3, 2017 21:21:56 GMT
I would be fine with that so long as it has better AP and has a significantly increased number of average hits, be it through more attacks or better weapon skill. That way it would be more of an allrounder in killing stuff, with a preference for elite infantry.
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Post by jesses on Nov 3, 2017 21:41:00 GMT
We have so many things that kill heavy infantry well. We need other monster hunters.
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Post by Iryan on Nov 3, 2017 21:49:10 GMT
I was under the impression that we have enough stuff that is good at meleeing monsters/vehicles. The problem is getting there for most of those units, which would not be different for the toxicrene.
At any rate, I would rather increase the number of attacks by 50% than increase the damage from d3 to flat 3. Same result against durable stuff, better against less durable stuff. Would you agree with me on that?
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 3, 2017 22:04:59 GMT
TIL: a situational melee buff on a shooting unit is better than a 17% accuracy buff you will likely use every turn from T1 until death.
Guys if your shooting units are getting easily charged, you are (please do not swear) up. Of course things are going to happen during the game and yes, unless you start steam rolling the enemy eventually your shooting units are going to get charged, but let's be real a second and set the army up in the real, with half a brain, where you aren't getting magically countered and over run at every opportunity.
Come on, guys.
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Post by Jabberwocky on Nov 3, 2017 22:05:34 GMT
I would be fine with that so long as it has better AP and has a significantly increased number of average hits, be it through more attacks or better weapon skill. That way it would be more of an allrounder in killing stuff, with a preference for elite infantry. Pretty sure Toxi is getting -2 AP for melee.
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Post by arapaima on Nov 3, 2017 22:12:03 GMT
Since the toxi was originally pitched to us as a monster/mech killer, I wish it actually got the tools to do the job, high ap,damage etc.
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Post by jesses on Nov 3, 2017 22:22:35 GMT
I was under the impression that we have enough stuff that is good at meleeing monsters/vehicles. The problem is getting there for most of those units, which would not be different for the toxicrene. At any rate, I would rather increase the number of attacks by 50% than increase the damage from d3 to flat 3. Same result against durable stuff, better against less durable stuff. Would you agree with me on that? Eh, I'd rather it do more than 3. It was pitched as our superheavy killer. It should honestly do D6 or something and have a freaking 3+ WS. I don't care if it needs to go up in price, I want to be able to use it like the SoB dluff where it tore apart a freaking Baneblade.
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Post by autoxidation on Nov 3, 2017 22:33:34 GMT
We have so many things that kill heavy infantry well. We need other monster hunters. We have tyrannofexes, exocrines, hive Guard for shooting. Trygons now can use the reroll wounds stratagem and do D6 damage.
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Post by Jabberwocky on Nov 3, 2017 22:33:52 GMT
TIL: a situational melee buff on a shooting unit is better than a 17% accuracy buff you will likely use every turn from T1 until death. Guys if your shooting units are getting easily charged, you are (please do not swear) up. Of course things are going to happen during the game and yes, unless you start steam rolling the enemy eventually your shooting units are going to get charged, but let's be real a second and set the army up in the real, with half a brain, where you aren't getting magically countered and over run at every opportunity. Come on, guys. A situational melee buff, I'd count +1 to hit in melee vs certain targets. Gaining a power weapon with damage D3, on a 4 attack, S6, 3+ hit (on charge) on top of potential MW, I'd consider a serious boon, especially as it effectively only sacrifices an assault 3-6 weapon (the loss of hits). If you had an assault 12 gun and could then add either an assault 3 gun on top or a D3 damage power weapon, on a platform with solid melee stats, would you honestly take the gun? I really feel you neuter the fex having no melee weapon, whilst giving up enhanced senses obviously hurts but doesn't stop it doing its job. Heck it's going to be better than current just from the weapon buffs.
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Post by jesses on Nov 3, 2017 22:41:56 GMT
We have so many things that kill heavy infantry well. We need other monster hunters. We have tyrannofexes, exocrines, hive Guard for shooting. Trygons now can use the reroll wounds stratagem and do D6 damage. Which is nice for the shooting, don't get me wrong, but a Trygon is not going toe-to-toe with a Wraithlord (let alone a Wraithknight) or the CC Orkanaught, or anything else T8. In the fluff we have the biggest monsters, I would like the biggest monsters on the tabletop as well. We have 3 kinds of Fexs, Hive Tyrants, Haruspex, Tyrant Guard, Raveners, Stealers, and Warriors, Acid Spray Tfexs, Exocrines, etc etc who are all designed to mulch heavy infantry (and moat are decent or better at it). We don't need ANOTHER creature that does that well, especially when we only have 1 (Trygon) that is ok at fighing monsters.
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Post by autoxidation on Nov 3, 2017 22:46:52 GMT
Trygons will absolutely beat a Wraithlord in combat. 7 attacks, 3+ hit with reroll 1s, rerolls to wound, leaves the Wraithlord with only a 6+ armor save and suffers D6 damage.
Stonecrushers are also decent answers to CC antivehicle.
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Post by gigasnail on Nov 3, 2017 22:57:58 GMT
TIL: a situational melee buff on a shooting unit is better than a 17% accuracy buff you will likely use every turn from T1 until death. Guys if your shooting units are getting easily charged, you are (please do not swear) up. Of course things are going to happen during the game and yes, unless you start steam rolling the enemy eventually your shooting units are going to get charged, but let's be real a second and set the army up in the real, with half a brain, where you aren't getting magically countered and over run at every opportunity. Come on, guys. A situational melee buff, I'd count +1 to hit in melee vs certain targets. Gaining a power weapon with damage D3, on a 4 attack, S6, 3+ hit (on charge) on top of potential MW, I'd consider a serious boon, especially as it effectively only sacrifices an assault 3-6 weapon (the loss of hits). If you had an assault 12 gun and could then add either an assault 3 gun on top or a D3 damage power weapon, on a platform with solid melee stats, would you honestly take the gun? I really feel you neuter the fex having no melee weapon, whilst giving up enhanced senses obviously hurts but doesn't stop it doing its job. Heck it's going to be better than current just from the weapon buffs. Do not leave shooting units unsupported. Where are your broodlords and flyrants? Where are your stealers? Where is your bubble wrap? Let these things bail your fexes and other shooting units out and let the shooting units focus on shooting. The acid maw is not a bad biomorph but, no, it's nowhere near as useful to a dakkafex as enhanced senses.
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