Monstrous Brood

[greennbrown]

How does this work with regard to number of units on the table for reserves. E.g. if I have 2 Carnifexes in a Monstrous Brood, when calculating number of units that start the game on the table is it 1 or 2? From reading the rule when you set up it's a unit but "From that point onwards…" they are separate units. I'm just not sure when 'that point onwards' is compared to number of units starting on the table. My guess is it counts as 2 but not sure

[tomcaet]

My guess is it's only one - Tactical Reserves word it as "half the total number of units in your army", so before the split.

[kazetanade]

At no point in time do they have the statement "they count as a single unit for all rules, intent, and purposes" so I'd say 2.

[bolk]

They are a single unit until the game actually starts, so they count as 1 unit for deployment.

[No One]

bolk said:

They are a single unit until the game actually starts, so they count as 1 unit for deployment.

And where does it say that? All it says is:

The first time this unit is set up on the battlefield...From that point onwards, each...is treated as a separate unit.

Thus they immediately become multiple units (otherwise it's not 'from that point onwards'). Since the check for how many units you have would occur at the end of deployment (otherwise, how do you know how many units you've deployed in reserve/on the board to not breach the 50%), they would count as multiple units for the purposes of reserve, yes.

[Bellator]

"This unit contains 1 Carnifex. It can contain 1 additional Carnifex or 2 additional Carnifexes."

"The first time this unit is set up on the battlefield, all of the models must be placed within 6" of at least 1 other model in their unit. From that point onwards each operates independently and is treated as a separate unit."


The entry contains a unit of carnifexes, not 3 separate units. They don't separate until they are deployed. They count as 1 drop, so they only allow for one unit in reserve. We can't have it both ways.

[kazetanade]

I spent 1 drop to place 3 units, similarly to how 2 infantry squads in a chimera = 1 drop for 3 units.

You cant determine that you've put half your total units in reserves until the end of deployment, and the units split to become 3 units as soon as you've placed them. This is pretty straight forward guys. Dont overcomplicate things.

[Bellator]

It is not complicated. They are one unit until it says they are not which is after they are deployed. If you want it to allow for three reserves, you buy three min units.

[tomcaet]

Tactical Reserves only care for units in your Battle-forged army. If what they were treated as after deployment had any importance then, for example, we'd get funny business with units treated as terrain features.

[bolk]

Sept 25, 2017 11:38:56 GMT No One said:

bolk said:

They are a single unit until the game actually starts, so they count as 1 unit for deployment.

And where does it say that? All it says is:

The first time this unit is set up on the battlefield...From that point onwards, each...is treated as a separate unit.

Thus they immediately become multiple units (otherwise it's not 'from that point onwards'). Since the check for how many units you have would occur at the end of deployment (otherwise, how do you know how many units you've deployed in reserve/on the board to not breach the 50%), they would count as multiple units for the purposes of reserve, yes.

I have made one unit with 3 Carnifexes. That they have a special rule that allows them to work as independent single model units afterwards does not change that.

[No One]

Bellator said:

It is not complicated. They are one unit until it says they are not which is after they are deployed. If you want it to allow for three reserves, you buy three min units.

bolk said:

I have made one unit with 3 Carnifexes. That they have a special rule that allows them to work as independent single model units afterwards does not change that.

Why doesn't it change that? 1 unit has become 3 during deployment. Your criteria are met - they are in your army, they are separate units and they are set up on the battlefield during deployment.

What do you think would happen with combat squads? Or some rule that twigged off number of units in your army mid game?

tomcaet said:

Tactical Reserves only care for units in your Battle-forged army. If what they were treated as after deployment had any importance then, for example, we'd get funny business with units treated as terrain features.

...OK, I'm really curious as to what this' about.

[tomcaet]

Number of units will change during the battle, but in the Battle-forged army there's still just one unit of Carnifexes. Same for Combat Squads. Summoned units' form in the army is Reinforcement Points, that pool might become different number of units depending on the course of battle.

Aegis Defence Line and Imperial Defence Line are in many ways just like any other unit - in an army, in their detachment, costed in points, with keywords and abilities. The Static Defence Network ability says that this unit, after being set up, is treated as a terrain feature. Would it not be a unit in an army because of this?

[able]

They are not separate units, but they are "treated as separate units". There is no clarification as to the circumstances where they are treated as separate units, so the only conclusions that make any sense are that by not including specific situations they are not treated as separate for any rule interactions beside those listed, which are none, or they are treated as separate units for all purposes, including victory conditions and tactical reserves limits. There is no arbitrary line given to us that says "under these circumstances they are regarded as separate, and under these they are not", so I would read that it applies to all circumstances, including counting numbers of units on the table.

[Jabberwocky]

The rule is written so that if the unit is in reserve, it's a single big unit until it arrives.

I'm inclined to say they are a single unit until the game begins, or at least deployment is done.

I don't think there's an unquestionable argument for either side here though. As such I'd play it conservatively so as not to benefit unfairly if it ends up being faqed the other way.

[kazetanade]

Eh, i read it as amaeteur lawyers trying too hard again. It says "hey, this unit breaks into 3 units when you place them on the board!" I choose to deploy the carnifexen first and get 3 units on the table. I reserve 3 units.

Thing is, you can't determine that you have up to 50% of your total units in a reserve mechanic until after you placed every single last unit in your army, because reserved mechanic units other than droppods get a choice in the matter. Nowhere in the book does it say "hey guys these Fexen are only 3 units after the game starts!" Nor does it say "hey guys Tactical Reserves must be based on your pregame list k? Not your total like what we wrote in the rule" nor "hey guys you can only have as many reserves mechanics as you have normal units k" nor "hey guys these Fexen count as a single unit for all rules intents and purposes before the start of the game / at any point in the game other than before being deployed ok".

You're adding restrictions that both aren't there and aren't necessary to infer the process of working. This isnt the scytal issue which was a legitimate problem. Overcomplicating things.