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Post by No One on Oct 10, 2017 14:48:43 GMT
I somehow missed that they are slower than the patriarch. Whoops. My apologies to any opponents I may have cheated. I'm usually moving them out of chimeras, so not that big of an issue for me. Less Move per se (coherency is a thing, though that doesn't help), more the fact that the Advance+Charge only refers to the Patriarch (not this unit or anything). Yep. Annoyingly enough, don't have the game experience to know if it's highlighting issues (and strengths too I guess) with the list in general, or just issues with the list in that particular match up.
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Post by bansh on Oct 10, 2017 19:36:14 GMT
A tallarn russ that fires twice can absorb alot of heavy fire if thats what your looking for
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Post by No One on Oct 28, 2017 5:03:26 GMT
Finally got a proper game in. Vs Chaos, my list was the trygon/purestrain variant of the previous page. Battalion HQ Swarmlord (Warlord) HQ Malanthrope HQ Flyrant (MRC, TS, AG, stranglethorn) Elite Tyrant guard (RC, AG) Troops Stealers (20) Troops Termagants (11 devs, 14 fleshborer) Troops Termagants (11 devs, 15 fleshborer) FA Gargs (20) Patrol (GSC) HQ Patriarch Elite Purestrain Stealers (19) Troops Neophytes (10) Spearhead HQ Magus HS Trygon (AG) HS Mawloc HS Biovore
Game...didn't inspire me with confidence. It went pretty OK overall: draw (EW) when we finished end T4, probably a win with the tournament including maelstrom/KP. But...it didn't feel like a tournament list (not bad, but not optimised either), the player seemed average (again, not bad, but...e.g. he didn't use a single Chaos stratagem...). I was able to prevent 3 units from doing nothing (quad las pred, punisher fortification, helldrake) with minimal resources (basically lost just the gargs for that, though also some psychic/CP and probably opportunity costs/positioning stuff), his obliterators only killed biovore/gaunts (though that was important for mission), maulerfiend didn't even move till T4...And I still ended up with likely less offense alive (half dead pred, maulerfiend, hellbrute, DP and some characters/spawn vs a bunch of gaunts, half dead flyrant, SL and patty). A lot of the list seemed to work well: gargs were awesome. Despite stuffing up a bit on Synapse, were able to lock pred, and prevent it shooting for 2 turns. Drew the attention of almost his entire army. Footslogging the mixed terms...mostly worked? They survived fine (I didn't lose a single devilgant), and were putting down fire from T2. But that fire was often limited by range to only part of the squad and/or wasn't able to go where I wanted. Also 2+ marines meant I only killed ~10 marines and a min cultist unit... The stealer drops...sort of worked? The trygon ones HCed into a charge fine, killed a bunch of stuff (cultists, most of the chosen/possessed), got charged (and killed more) before dying horribly to DP/spawn etc etc. Trygon/mawloc did stuff and then died horribly. And same with purestrains (though that was turn after the drop due to a 3), though they lost 9 to overwatch...So it ended up being trades due to poor survivability/greater offense, that I don't think were in my favour (partly due to lacking hitting power a bit, partly due to lacking targets). Flyrant/SL...hung around t-guard and did minimal work. Eh? Will try and get a bat rep up later.
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Post by No One on Oct 30, 2017 12:41:28 GMT
So, this is just a half-baked thingy based on rumoured stratagems/tactics etc, and of course pts changes etc could change stuff, but wanted to ramble. Codex tactics rambling: Battalion (Behemoth) HQ Flyrant (MRC, AG, TS, HVC) (WL) 210 HQ Flyrant (MRC, AG, TS, Devs) 194 Troops Termagants (25 devs, 5 fleshborers) 220 Troops Genestealers (20) 240 Troops Rippers (3) 33 FA Gargs (20, AG) 140 Spearhead (Behemoth) HQ Flyrant (MRC, AG, TS, HVC) 210 HS Trygon Prime (AG) 220 HS Trygon (AG) 180 HS Biovore 35 Battalion (Kronos) HQ Neurothrope 70 HQ Neurothrope 70 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Troops Rippers (3) 33 FA Mucolid 20 (Still leaves ~60 pts which I've got no idea what to spend on. Could possibly get a HVC fex with -1 to hit and +1 BS in the Kronos det instead of the muco if there's a fair bit of cost reduction? Eh. Did toy with the idea of a Magus, but that loses Stratagem and obsec I'm pretty sure, which doesn't appeal enough for Hyp. Edit: Would lose ob sec, but should still get Kronos Stratagem: have a pure Tyranids Detachment to get access to all the Stratagems, and then I've got a <Kronos> unit to use the specific one on. So...maybe?) Anyway, general idea is pretty obvious. Bunch of flyrants/trygons dropping down for rerollable 8" charges. With the survivability bump on the flyrants, they might live to do useful stuff...hopefully. Devilgants with 160 shots on the drop for 2CP, and some decent anti-tank from the HVC (potentially auto-hitting depending on exact Miasma statlines/other relics). Stealers...without swarmy, feel like they're too easily going to be left high and dry, even with reroll charges. Depending on cost, actually considering the +1 sv option for them: basically try and survive for a next turn charge, since that's quite likely to happen - but also only 1 unit. Dropping them altogether...ehh...maybe if I had more devilgants, leave the anti-tank to the MCs. But I don't, so I do feel that I need a more general-duty offensive unit in there, and not a utility like horms. Adding SL in...would probably be a complete list rewrite. Other det is for all the units to stick everything in reserve . Also gives some smite/non-HF restricted psychics (e.g. Catalyst, Paroxysm) and access to the Kronos anti-psyker Stratagem (that thing is really nice for shutting down, say, Magnus or single-psyker Chaos Warptime lists etc). Other list ideas: maybe something with a 'firebasey' core, playing around HG+dakkafexes with HVC/+1BS and SL with guard, DS in stealers (and probably a flyrant or 2) and devilgants? Tactics don't quite want to mesh though...possibly have the shooty core being Jormungandr and a neuro/mal, SL as Behemoth to back up Behemoth trygon drops? Dunno how the pts would work out... Tweaking the previous post's list concept is...maybe not terrible, but lacks out hard on the 'units on the table' department, since it wants the gargs in reserve so much (9" away, with a 12" Fly move?), probably the same with the flyrant to just avoid firepower, if nothing else. And consolidate the devilgants into the same unit for the 2CP double tap, which means putting them in a tunnel. And...that basically leaves swarmy, mal and t-guard on the table...*sigh* Oh well, I'm at least having the problem of not being able to fit all the good things I want in I guess? Will see how things pan out. Honestly, still not super enthused, but that's also just my attitude to 40k at the moment (who knew that not playing a game would make you lose interest in a game ).
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Post by No One on Oct 31, 2017 11:27:03 GMT
OK, building off the above mentioned idea of the fex/SL footsloggers: Brigade (Jormungandr) HQ Swarmlord 300 HQ Malanthrope 90 HQ Neurothrope 70 Elite T-guard 114 Elite Hive guard (3, impalers) 144 Elite Hive guard (3, impalers) 144 Troops Termagants (24 devs, 4 fleshborers) 208 Troops Genestealers (19, TS) 304 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Troops Rippers (3) 33 FA Mucolid 20 FA Mucolid 20 FA Spores 30 HS Carnifex (HVC, deathspitters, +1BS) 122 HS Carnifex (HVC, devourers, +1BS) 122 HS Trygon (AG) 180 Total: 2000 pts So, this is built a lot around the offensive stratagems: - Tunnel stratagem to get both stealers and devilgants up the board: this will depend on wording though. If it's the same as trygon tunnel...well, no way I'm fitting them both wholly within 3". If so, would likely either see if I could scrounge up a lictor to use that strat, and fold the HG into one unit. Or...more likely, just not use the units I don't have (i.e. lictor/HG) and grab another trygon. -SL+TS stealers for the fight twice strat. -Devilgants double tap (and potentially HG instead). (Also +1 dam on the fexes isn't terrible) Then the rest should be a durable shooting core moving (or stationary with the HG) up the board. A lot of not very helpful stuff to get the brigade though, but it really does need the CP, so... Variant with stuff I have: Battalion (Jormungandr) HQ Swarmlord 300 HQ Malanthrope 90 Elite T-guard 114 Troops Termagants (25 devs, 5 fleshborers) 220 Troops Genestealers (20, TS) 320 Troops Rippers (3) 33 Spearhead (Jormungandr) HQ Broodlord 162 HS Carnifex (HVC, deathspitter, +1BS) 122 HS Carnifex (HVC, devourers, +1BS) 122 HS Trygon (AG) 180 HS Trygon prime (AG) 220 Outrider (Kronos) HQ Magus 73 FA Mucolid 20 FA Mucolid 20 FA Spore mines 30 Total: 2026 (Based on approximate costings: trygon/trygon prime look to be getting a cost drop, so that should ~balance out). Similar to the above, but going more in on the stealer drop, with using the Jormungandr strat to get a BL in there as well. Not as happy, do like the shooting elements of the above, but if I don't have...This trades it in for more melee, in the form of a trygon, which is still likely to suffer from survivability issues (though 2+ should help). And BL, which is pretty good but doesn't last once everything else is dead. (Also, for crazy all in on the stealer charge, add a lictor somewhere to the above, use that to get the BL in there, and go Gorgon for reroll 1s and TS on 5s . Probably actually drop the fexes or trygons for another stealer unit in DS somehow - with 4++, SL might actually live ).
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Post by No One on Nov 5, 2017 14:38:51 GMT
Finished the bat rep about the game against Chaos if anyone cares: thetyranidhive.proboards.com/post/925115/thread Edit: This is continuation of a couple of posts up, no relation to below/Codex.
Anyway, trying to build some lists for the tournament using the Codex.
2250 pts: Battalion (Behemoth) HQ Mal 90 HQ Flyrant (MRC, AG, TS, Devs) 193 Troops Termagants (25 devs) 200 Troops Genestealers (19, 4 acid maws) 228 Troops Rippers (3) 33 FA Gargs (20, AG) 140 Spearhead (Behemoth) HQ Flyrant (MRC, AG, TS, HVC - Miasma) 204 HQ Swarmlord 300 Elite T-guard 114 HS Trygon (AG) 173 HS Trygon (AG) 173 HS Carnifex (HVC, devourers, +1BS) 116 Outrider (Kronos) HQ Flyrant (Deathspitters, HVC, AG) (WL) 209 FA Muco 20 FA Muco 20 FA Spores 30
Total: 2248
General idea is to dump the gargs and the devilgants: the devilgants double tap to hopefully murder any infantry I don't like, while the gargs HC onto any non-Fly stuff I don't want shooting. Then next turn, bring in the stealers and flyrants to hopefully charge everything without wrap getting in the way. HVC etc gives some supporting firepower and lets me engage on targets I can't charge (since those are likely neutered this turn anyway). I'm pretty happy with the overall idea. However, I'm not sure if it's enough: it's relying so heavily on the MRC for anti-tank, which relies on flyrants making 8" charges. With rerolls yes, but still, and there's only 2 with MRC. It also hinges a fair bit on SL, and especially at 2250, I'm very uncertain about his ability to survive, even with the survivability buffs. I've tried to mitigate that (AG on the gargs, Behemoth), but still. Add on there's nothing much he's tanking for...(dakkafex, but...well, that wasn't even there in an earlier list iteration). Unfortunately, don't have a pod, and there's not much else I have I could actually bring I don't think. The HVC and smite hopefully can act to counterbalance, but...well, ultimately I just don't have the model tools for any other option (HG are an ongoing project that will hopefully get finished eventually . But not finished and painted in 2 weeks).
Now, there's a fair few things I'm not sure about here in the minutiae: the biggest is the flyrant dakka WL. It's not Behemoth, so doesn't get mal or t-guard bubbles if I wanted to play back. It's got deathspitters instead of MRC, which...I'm more concerned about vehicles than infantry with the devilgants. But ranged doesn't rely on making charges (which, especially without Behemoth...). In essence, I'm literally taking that det for the anti-psyker strat. And am making the dakka flyrant my WL for the anti-psyker WL trait. But...is that worth likely giving up WL, and also likely reducing the effectiveness of my 3rd flyrant?
The other big thing (which sort of ties into that): I could drop the dakkafex for a magus in the outrider and move the flyrant into Behemoth with MRC. Now, I much prefer the magus as the HQ and then mal WL. But, the much bigger question: is it worth giving up the dakkafex? I'm...ambivalent. Hypnosis is awesome, but...it's also not reliable, is fairly short ranged, and especially without the dakkafex there, the magus doesn't have a whole heap to hide behind.
Also not sure on some of the load outs (i.e. should I go deathspitter for the range on the dakkafex? HVC for the anti-vehicle on the dev/MRC flyrant? Devs on the dakkaflyrant for the output, since it's got the mobility to not be as concerned with range?) But those are smaller things.
(A variant list I was toying with was dropping 2 flyrants for another dakkafex and TS on the stealers+a BL and going Jormungandr, but...way too heavily reliant on the stealers, and thus SL, for my liking).
Edit: Something I'm finding is feeling lacking in CP. What makes this really annoying is the event doesn't allow doubling of dets: so, with the Codex not having any Relics/WL traits for more CP, the only way to get more is through a brigade. Which...I literally cannot field with my current model selection. (Well, I could technically bring in some aberrants/metas ). Oh well, 8 will have to do.
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Post by autoxidation on Nov 6, 2017 6:52:37 GMT
Interesting. I am really considering trying for a Kraken brigade with maybe a spearhead of Kronos. Tyranids really seem to have a good selection of stratagems and using many of them is a big deal. Double shooting unit of 30 devilgants is just gross. Did you really feel Behemoth was worth using? How did you feel about the Flyrant with MRC and Miasma cannon?
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Post by No One on Nov 6, 2017 7:17:35 GMT
Did you really feel Behemoth was worth using? How did you feel about the Flyrant with MRC and Miasma cannon? Unfortunately I haven't gotten a game in with the Codex (hopefully got a game in on Thurs: will see if my opponent's up to me trialling some Codex stuff. Not sure about signing up for a tournament with a Codex I haven't even tested yet . The bat rep was from a week or so ago (I mentioned it above...then went on a tangent between about codex stuff. Possibly a tad confusing, woops ).
But, I do think Behemoth is pretty important for the flyrants: I think there's a lot hinging on the 8" charges, so I do think I need the rerolls. The survivability buff may let them live, but my experiences with current flyrants doesn't fill me with hope. So reroll charges, hopefully lets them get in, do some damage, and tie things up to reduce retaliation. It also ties into the SL: I don't trust him to live, so this way I at least get a reroll for the gargs/stealers if he's dead by that point.
Kraken is something I toyed with, but...then I'm banking so much on SL letting me get a good charge on the gargs to tie everything up and wrap stuff. If SL dies, or they're too spread (or have Fly)? Flyrants are likely to be left high and dry.
Miasma...I'm not expecting great things from it, but there's not really much else I want (that isn't Kraken's -1 to hit ): should hopefully give some strong anti-tank even if degraded if it survives till next turn.
Edit 2: Will have a game with this on Thurs, will let you know how it goes.
Edit: Yeah, really looking forward to that . Outflanking devilgants was one of my favourite (if casual) strats back in 6th/early 7th, so I'm happy I can use them consistently with the trygon. And now I get to use buckets of dice twice?
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Post by almostmercury on Nov 6, 2017 16:38:57 GMT
No pod available hey?
The double shots make me want to bring devilgants now too.
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Post by No One on Nov 7, 2017 0:31:09 GMT
No .
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Post by No One on Nov 9, 2017 14:00:02 GMT
OK, game went...brutally well (he called it end of his T2...) Quick summary: SW with 2xthunderwolves, 2xwulfen (1 in stormwolf), a unit of long fangs and 3xgrey hunters. And Logan with some assault termis. He got first: basically nothing happened in shooting (long fangs were at -2 due to the mission rule ). But, since I stuffed up mine placements (I was using them to make TWC movement into my DZ awkward...except they didn't have enough movement to actually do so T1, making that positioning pretty pointless ), he got DS charges with the termis and Logan. The assault termis didn't do much (mostly claws) on the fex/mal, Logan had most of his wounds saved by blade parry, the rest were dumped onto t-guard. Then he got cut down by Swarmlord . My turn, dropped all the flyrants (2 melee on the stormwolf, the other just in range of some thunderwolves), stealers couldn't come in range of HC. Smite knocked off most of the wounds from the stormwolf. Devilgants were pretty good (if time consuming...): killed 5 wulfen and 2 wounds off a cav with the double tap (last wound was lost in his assault phase ). Flyrant assaults all passed with the reroll on the stormwolf: he had nowhere to get out (flyrants, I'd moved some rippers next to it, and it was also right next to the combat i.e. SL and fex), so lost the wulfen. He also lost some grey hunters and another TWC to devs, and the long fangs were tied up by the DS gargs. He called it after he failed the charge on the dakkaflyrant and the charge on the devilgants only killed ~6. (He'd also lost some more termis and still failed to kill the fex due to a lucky 6 against the hammer). Overall: flyrants were great. So were devilgants. SL performed where I don't usually expect him to (i.e. melee and not dying). Fex...well, the whole 'not shooting' bit was rather awkward. Blocked a charge on the SL I guess? Likely would've shot T3...if it didn't die (on 1 wound ). But for 100 pts...did very well considering, and the chance to do stuff is worth it. The load outs (which is the big thing for me): I sort of liked them? The HVC all whiffed terribly, but 3++ isn't the norm for anti-tank weaponry, and I was getting consistent wounds before saves. The devs did well (swapped to devs on the dakkaflyrant), and I think I like the mix: the dakkaflyrant gives me something to play back and kite/psychic a bit safer, while "protecting" WL better than on the melee units (mal would do a better job of that. But mal also wouldn't let me take the anti-psyker WL trait. Which...I really don't know if it's worth it there, but anyway). The only thing I still don't know about is the dakkafex: devs would've been in range T1, but I was also playing a melee army. I'm not sure if I like the lack of any 24" anti-infantry in the army: it's not so much an issue on the flyrants due to 16" move, but I think it may be on the dakkafex. The flip side with the flyrants is that 24" and 16" Fly lets them play some different games: kitting or shooting at units deeper into my opponent's DZ. But I think I prefer the added output of the devs there. Did you really feel Behemoth was worth using? How did you feel about the Flyrant with MRC and Miasma cannon? Definitely on Behemoth: I made 2/3 (or 3/3?) charges when I otherwise wouldn't have, all of which were very important. Allowed me to tie up the long fangs, and kill the stormwolf+occupants. I think it works very well with the style of list I'm running here. Miasma...ambivalent. The MRC were great, and the mixed shooting/melee worked well. But the HVC...well, I think it was a bit of a niche case (3++ everywhere!), but they did literally nothing. Miasma not working on the drop makes it a bit eh (though I actually forgot about the 2+ ): I wouldn't have really wanted to close to the 8" auto hit range, but it would've been very nice on overwatch. In general...I could've shot it T2 auto-hitting. But ultimately, I just don't think any of the relics are better. Maw claws requires you to successfully kill something (which, when you're vehicle hunters relying on 8" charges? Not incredibly likely). Ymgarl...maybe? Still has the 'melee only' issue, and the buffs are potentially a bit spastic (+1T is almost never useful when charging, +1S is only useful against T6/T7: admittedly vehicle hunter primarily ). The really nice ones (-1 hit, +1T) are fleet specific .
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Post by seeg on Nov 11, 2017 11:43:14 GMT
great bat reps! really appreciate reading new strats for our new codex i have a question or two i hope you'll shed some light on.
i usually run a tonne of gants and gaunts. i find myself always defaulting to having a tonne of them whenever i write my lists for deepstrike protection, screening my big guns and general messing with the board control. how do you handle not having swarm gants and gaunts? i'm starting to feel its becoming a crutch of sorts for me. i'm not even entirely sure if its a good thing to do. seeing the kinds of lists you've been writing, what are your opinions on 'nidzilla' style lists for our new codex?
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Post by No One on Nov 11, 2017 12:16:59 GMT
i have a question or two i hope you'll shed some light on. I'm always happy to ramble . A: Since I essentially don't have a backfield, I'm not as concerned about screening: the spores/rippers can do pretty well at T1 DS screening in a pinch as well (just something that I messed up in the game: focussed too much on one thing, and completely forgot about the stuff in reserves ). B: While I don't have quite the across the map board presence that large hordes of gaunts give, I do usually have very strong map control (I think...it's not like I've actually got a large number of games in with this list , or games in general). Namely, I have 2 very aggressive, decently large model count units that will get into my opponent's DZ and start causing havoc (the gargs and stealers). Playing like this, the opponent often doesn't even leave their DZ until basically all my stuff is dead: partially because they physically can't, partially because they want to get 'away', get space...which is usually further into their DZ (unless they've got Fly and high Move, at which point jumping over would definitely be the better option). Which...if they don't have any counter-DS, they've essentially ceded the rest of the board to me. This has been the case in basically every game of 8th I've had (though I won't at all say my experience with 8th is indicative, since I think I've had a...potentially skewed pool of opponents, and not a huge amount of games), and I'd often do it (with greater success) with 7th ed cult. Unfortunately, I just couldn't capitalise because everything died. Hopefully with the flyrant buffs (and some other stuff, like those juicy devilgants) I'll be able to capitalise. Also haven't been doing too much maelstrom either, where the map control is more game winning. With the buffs to fexes and flyrants especially, they look a lot better: most of my issues came from flyrants almost evaporating once they engaged. Unfortunately trygon's still in that 'squishy' spot, but the tunnels are still worth it. I definitely think nidzilla could be viable, though I do think a properly competitive list will want some form of gaunts (good melee units will still wreck us). Whether it's our best build or anything? Dunno.
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Post by No One on Nov 11, 2017 15:33:11 GMT
So, lists need to be in tomorrow. After having run the maths, not so sold on the miasma cannon. Currently thinking either scy tals or ymgarl. Not sure if the scy tals is worth the 15 pts, when it only really shines when I spend an additional CP for the wound re-rolls...(at least when I only have 8, and plan on spending 2 almost right off the bat).
Anyway, current iteration: Battalion (Behemoth) HQ Mal 90 HQ Flyrant (Scy tals (Relic), AG, TS, Devs) 208 Troops Termagants (25 devs, 1 fleshborer) 204 Troops Genestealers (18, 4 acid maws) 216 Troops Rippers (3) 33 FA Gargs (20, AG) 140 Spearhead (Behemoth) HQ Flyrant (MRC, AG, TS, HVC) 204 HQ Swarmlord 300 Elite T-guard (AG) 114 HS Trygon (AG) 173 HS Trygon (AG) 173 HS Carnifex (HVC, devourers, +1BS) 116 Outrider (Kronos) HQ Flyrant (Devs, HVC) (WL) 209 FA Muco 20 FA Muco 20 FA Spores 30 Total: 2250
(The above concerns about Kronos and dev/spitter load outs are still valid if anyone has any thoughts). Dropped AG from the Kronos flyrant (since he's not Behemoth, won't be going for the 8" rerollable charges) and a stealer to make up the pts for the talon.
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Post by almostmercury on Nov 11, 2017 22:07:53 GMT
I love the lonely fleshborer hanging with the cool kids.
“Hey guys!!” “Awww (please do not swear). We get Larry again!?”
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