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Post by No One on Jul 18, 2017 5:11:06 GMT
Yea your collection is a little small compared to what I have. Between me and the shop assistant we have like 140 Neophytes, so with a little bribery I can loan like 40 painted Neophytes + my own 50 in collection. It doesn't help that I converted almost enough for another squad into acolytes...the current state of affairs for acolytes makes me sad . Have ~70 of them (including metas), probably not going to field more than 20 in a serious list . Which list? Because the most recent 2k version does have the trygon+devilgants (and will have a mal if I end up organising...). I don't see any benefit to taking more...dropping the SL+t-guard - that then leaves 2 flyrants high and dry. While they don't need HC per se, they do like it, and 2 MCs vs 3+t-guard? I have doubts about them surviving to be useful. Yeah . (Partially me just being stubborn and wanting to try and make it work, but anyway). Relevant quote: Which leads perfectly into… the game is still shooting centric. Combat is much more useful now but while you can make an all shooting force viable, you cannot make an all assault force viable. Roadblocks are too much of a thing and while a counter-assault element is quite important for a shooting army, shooting elements are essential for an assault army. My issue is that I don't really have enough to take adequate shooting support. 3 HG (we'll see how the conversion goes - might do up another 2, but only got 5 unassembled warriors...)? Meh. Solo exo isn't going to work, and not going to get 2. 2 russes might work (and I'll keep an eye out), but I'm still not sure on their survivability/output. Neos, maybe - but runs into the same 'issue' as HG - just not enough for the output I need. Flyrants were my "solution", but again, stranglethorn doesn't cut it - add on issues with survivability, wanting to make cc for their 'main' damage, and HC taking away a shooting phase? Stranglethorn/DS might work, but once at the 18" mark...why not go for a next turn assault? The fact that you can't double cannon hurts here. Related to the flyrants, I've been thinking about trying a mindset shift, and just play back with them, engage at the 36" mark with the stranglethorn, and just creep the t-guard/SL up. Then engage properly with reserve elements. But again, it just comes back to durability - are they going to be doing more damage to me than I am to then? If so why am I bothering? And I think they will - most armies seem to have long range anti-tank at the 48" mark. Viable against MM/AC, or 36" weapons where I've got something else to shoot and thus can sit out of the range band of that model. But lascannons, railguns, autocannons, DS stuff to an extent? Of course, if I made up a mal and some HG...could maybe work? ...That was what I was thinking of when I made the comment (i.e. 6 stormravens, AC/hurricanes...). A couple of other flyers would be nuisances (DE, probably some Ork ones), but I don't see them being spammed - stormravens are so powerfully spammed because they have the tools to deal with anything (AC, MM and HB), while being survivable and mobile.
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Post by No One on Jul 19, 2017 6:54:53 GMT
So, should be getting the stuff for mal+HWT. Moving away from the MCs then (and unfortunately not getting any nid psychic ): 2000 pts: Patrol (Nids) HQ Malanthrope Troop Neophytes (10, las HWT) Troop Rippers (3) Elite Hive Guard (3, Impaler) Elite Hive Guard (3, Impaler) Battalion (GSC) HQ Primus HQ Primus HQ Patriarch (familiar) Elite Stealers (20) Elite Stealers (19) Troops Acolytes (20, drill, saw) Troops Acolytes (20) Troops Acolytes (12) Spearhead (Catachan) HQ Company Commander HS HWT (3xMortar) HS HWT (2xMortar, Lascannon) HS HWT (Heavy Bolter, Heavy bolter, Missile) Total: 1993 pts Edit: Harker is elite, not troop. Woops . Guess who's not going in the list...Added the rippers I was considering (and kaz suggested). Now have 1 dedicated objective grabber for mid/backfield, and 1 I'm pretty happy to throw on there (the 12 man acos). 3 rerolls for the 4 'big' units - might need to stagger in the stock 20 man aco squad if I have to use a CP...(might just bring in the 12 man? Depends on objective situation I guess). Other minor tweak I'm considering is swapping a banner in to the 20 man mining weapon acos. (The squads of 19 annoy me. And taking acos instead of stealers, but anyway - don't have the models, like my acos. At least I get 2 CP as a consolation prize? Similarly the lack of 3rd nid Elite to get a Vanguard) Simple list. Things hide out of LoS T1, provide some mid/long range firepower (unfortunately only 1 las/missile for AT: considering grabbing another las, but eh. 6 HG should do work though . If they don't...will be very dissapointed in them ). Stealers+acolytes murder everything. Probably the happiest I've been with a list, to be honest. I am perfectly happy to go 2nd, with little worry about being tabled and minimal concerns about firepower degradation. Plenty of melee threats. Something that happened last game (that I'm not sure how often it would actually happen), running a 1500 Cult (with chaff nids for CA drops): he came to me to try and get the table. Which let me come from behind with one of my squads, sandwiched between another to prevent any fall back, and also let more into combat. There are some lists where this just won't happen - but against armies with mid range firepower (i.e. most)? May be a possibility, especially if they're less familiar with the army. Add on that most long range firepower is anti-tank (mortars/wyvern about the only 48" anti-infantry I can think of off the top of my head)? Lets me bait there - the MCs, I was wanting first. Even if they didn't all die, I was (likely) losing more than I gained by any positional changes. This though? Meh. Even if I can't dodge LoS altogether (infantry, but because I'm a cheapskate half of them will just be standing neos/guardsmen on the HWT - so not guaranteed), I should get terrain cover, +mal on the HG. Add on 16 multi-wound infantry (across multiple squads) and 10 single (who provide, admittedly minimal, bubble wrap). Possible tweaks: changing impalers to shock for cheaper and more output. I don't like sacrificing the range though, and that splits my firebase: can't be with the neos for wrap. Grabbing another 5 man squad of stealers (don't have the models at the moment though, and don't think it's worth getting more) for some small help with the wrap/counter charge threat/Vanguard CP. Don't think it's worth that though. About the only concern I have is mission - nothing to really do with maelstrom. Throwing 20 acos on an objective would mean I get that objective...but that's also 200 pts that's probably not going to do much else...But honestly, that's just something I've got no idea what to do with cult yet - went from one of the best for maelstrom, loved it, easy to work elements into my army. To...having no idea what to do. No RTTS really hurts there, as does wanting to consolidate units for reserve slots and rerolls. Could maybe take a biovore/mucolid for the extra reserve slot, and then a ripper brood/split off a 5 man aco for objectives?
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 19, 2017 8:11:40 GMT
Take Neophytes or Ripper for the job, whichever you have spare.
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Post by No One on Jul 23, 2017 11:20:17 GMT
So, haven't assembled (or even got the bitz) for most of the new stuff - instead had a 1500 pt game. List: 1500 pts: Outrider HQ Flyrant (MRC, AG/TS, Stranglethorn) HQ Swarmlord Elite T-guard (3, RC/AG/TS) FA Muco FA Muco FA Spore (3) Vanguard HQ Primus HQ Patriarch (familiar) Elite Stealers (20) Elite Stealers (19) Elite Metamorphs (5, whip) Troops Neos (10, 2xmining, 2xgrenade) Bit of bloat - metas (le gasp! Whips and I needed the CP ) and neos mainly - but eh. Anyway - flyrant and t-guard got smoked T1 (hemlock hurts, as do Doom+brightlances ). SL then went on to do stuff (dealing 17 wounds in his first round of combat - unfortunately dropped to 10 after Eldar stuff. It still died to stealers at least). But yeah, even with that, I couldn't put enough of a dent onto his serpents (didn't help that Might didn't go off/got denied both times...), couldn't even touch the hemlock...Tabled T4. Will hopefully put up a more complete bat rep up some time (along with the other game I'd planned to, if I can even remember what happened...) List take aways (will hopefully do up a bat rep for other, more general thoughts to do with my play): MCs just seem so easy to focus down. (There was no true BLOS terrain, which didn't help - but with the new LoS rules, flyrants are going to be basically impossible to completely block). If I'd been running more 'mono nids' i.e. drop the chaff GSC and a purestrain, and added 2 flyrants - likely could've focused down the hemlock, and then started work on the WS. Tricky, but doable. But unless I'm focusing on the nid side - yeah, even 1500 pts with both of them and t-guard, wasn't worth. Dropping MCs that start on the board entirely for any more cult focused army (though I don't mind the idea of making more of a 'nid' force, and then adding 20 purestrains, a troop and a Primus . May even work, though I'd basically need flyrants, and I think they have a bit too much of an issue to be truly competitive - though if they focus SL...mal would help here once I get it sorted). That said...toying with the idea of trygons (has to be 2) - similar issues to the flyrants with having enough MC bodies. However, the hope here is, since I can actually dodge the T1 firepower and engage on them first, it might actually work (with 2 of them). Thinking of trying the 'uncomfortable touch' to go with them, and a devilgant unit (since they're lovely in a tunnel). Add purestrains, acolytes and chaff for reserves as points allow. Should be pretty brutal against infantry and non-Fly vehicles. Fly vehicles...maybe work if they don't have wrap? Banking on trygons making 8" charges though, and then killing/degrading into uselessness what they charge - add on the stealers, and it may be feasible. However, if I can't make enough dent in their anti-MC firepower...2 trygons are pretty easy to focus down. No wrap may be the case for Eldar - but Tau should definitely have Kroot wrap. I may be able to be sneaky and 8" assault onto the wrap with the trygons, use the horms to kill the wrap, and then pile in onto the vehicles with the trygons. But oh boy is that a risky gamble to play. The other comment regarding the list - I don't think it'd work at 2k (dropping only 2 tryons (all I have even if I had the pts for more ) - I don't think they'd be able to do enough). But I also don't have the pts to try and do everything as I'd like - couldn't fill out gaunt squads, doesn't feel like enough GSC etc. *Blegh* List would probably look something like this: Battalion HQ Magus 73 HQ Magus 73 Troops Terms (22, devs) 176 Troops Horms (22, AG) 132 Troops Rippers (3) 33 FA Muco 20 FA Muco 20 HS Trygon Prime (bio spike, AG) 219 HS Trygon (toxinspike, AG) 180 HS Biovore 36 Patrol HQ Primus 76 Elite Purestrain Stealers (20) 200 Elite Purestrain Stealers (19) 190 Troops Neos (las) 70 Total: 1498 Could maybe use the IG HWT for the drops needed, but considering I need a nid det anyway... Especially writing it out now, I don't think I've got any effective way to expand it to 2k - no other MCs to drop with the trygons, so I wouldn't expect enough of a dent in their anti-tank firepower for them to survive. Unlike 1500, where...maybe? And there's nothing much more to bring - couple more gaunts, and more acos (with chaff to enable) - nothing else really.
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Post by almostmercury on Jul 23, 2017 19:24:37 GMT
Purestrains are 15 points now... probably more reasonable.
I think Acolytes are a thing again.
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 23, 2017 20:18:47 GMT
A good thing being expensive doesnt make another bad thing good, but i do hope it gives some leverage to Acolytes (i dont think it does). 20 men is 5 points less than 15 GS, but 15 GS still output more damage... just because the last 20 attacks are still rending attacks.
Acolytes need to be cheaper. Since they dont hit as hard as GS anymore i think its really fair to leave them at 8ppm or up to 9ppm. It makes a difference when your max squad of soft hitters is 160 compared to 220.
On an unrelated note: you probably need more MC redundancy to play them, or some really effective way of keeping them alive. Trygons and pods are really good options you should consider.
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Post by No One on Jul 24, 2017 1:24:09 GMT
On an unrelated note: you probably need more MC redundancy to play them, or some really effective way of keeping them alive. Trygons and pods are really good options you should consider. Yeah, basically the conclusion I've come to - no more on the board MCs unless I'm running basically nothing bar flyrants/SL/whatever i.e. basically pure nids. Mal would help, but I seriously doubt enough - it's not the T1 alpha protection it was. Trygons...seriously considering, yeah - the issue I have with them, is that if my drop doesn't put a serious dent on their AT firepower, then I'm in the same situation I would've been in with stuff starting on the board - the only difference is I'm closer, i.e. some things are more effective and they can shoot other things if needed. Especially if they don't make charges i.e. I've just set them up to be killed. Pods, don't have, won't get. Purestrains are 15 points now... probably more reasonable. I think Acolytes are a thing again. Eh, not really - they're at least cheaper now, but still worse (which just goes to show that they were in a bad spot - pts bump+effectiveness drop isn't good). Except mining weapons - but I don't want to have to run mining weapons backed up by 'ablative wounds' - I want my rending murder blobs . Anyway - the concern I have (though this might just be me not figuring out how to get Cult+Nids to work yet...) is that even at 10 pts they weren't able to deal with what I needed them to deal with (i.e. Fly vehicles, or everything else ) - they almost certainly could've if running the whole '100 purestrains' lists, but 40? Wasn't cutting it. Cult (and by Cult I mean Cult, not 'how many purestrains can I spam?' - though it has mostly been purestrains with some nid stuff) has been struggling for me - and now it's got worse...Dunno - the fact that I don't have to worry about T1 tabling (yay!) means that I'm so much happier to just run pure Cult melee with as much chaff on field to prevent the tabling. So, we'll see how that goes - acolytes might be able to pull enough weight in numbers, add some habberants/mining for vehicles? I dunno - so much of my issues so far have come from Fly vehicles (or just stuff with Fly), which isn't an issue for Imperial stuff (which I think is most of the meta, to be honest). Outside of Flyers, of course. But hey - just kill everything else . And...well, I dunno - would I have a strong chance against those sorts of lists? Probably - I think I'd be able to deal with wrap well enough, and if they don't have wrap...*Sigh* Dunno. Also, I've got to rewrite all my lists again!? *Grumble grumble* 20 men is 5 points less than 15 GS, but 15 GS still output more damage... just because the last 20 attacks are still rending attacks. Banner does put them out ahead until ~13 acolytes. Very respectable at 20 man into lighter targets (i.e. <T5, 4+ sv) - also more survivable pt for pt. But yeah - this isn't really enough (though does make mining a lot better). Stealers are still more survivable, pt for pt (with banner - basically equal otherwise) in any situation where either T4 or 5++ matters. And they move so much faster, which is huge in any situation where you want to charge something next turn (yes, you will want to be able to close next turn) and helps a 6 a lot as well. Acos work better at smaller squad sizes (without banner) - happily go below 10, unlike stealers. But, with how CA is unit restricted, with CA rerolls only on 1 unit per phase, wanting minimal unit count for buffs etc...big squad sizes are encouraged. i.e. Purestrains. *Blegh* Stealers are now reasonably priced, and acos are still too expensive (poor, poor metamorphs). Will have to revisit haberrants I think - the output is good (now our best I'm pretty sure against T7), just that durability...it scares me . *Sigh* Back to the drawing board I guess - just as I get a couple of lists I wanted to try. RIP.
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Post by gigasnail on Jul 24, 2017 2:41:07 GMT
that's the conclusion i've had. you must have threat saturation of mc's for them to survive. two trygons, SL, flyrant, guard, and an exocrine have done ok but i'm still beating baby seals. i nearly always loose at least one MC for the first two rounds, if not two a round, until the stealers get stuck in and then things go downhill fast for the other guys.
i want to try a mawlock spammy list.
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 24, 2017 4:06:35 GMT
I did forget but mawloc very legit as well. Its the easiest thing to get threat saturation and buy a turn or two. Problem as always is going second.
I'm thinking 5 Exocrines and a malanthrope will do the trick. Sorry i dont have solutions that work with your collection size. =P
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Post by No One on Jul 24, 2017 11:00:32 GMT
two trygons, SL, flyrant, guard, and an exocrine have done ok but i'm still beating baby seals. Yeah, my 'nid list' would probably be something like SL+guard, 2-3 flyrants, 1-2 trygons/mawloc, plus whatever gaunts/HG/mal/purestrains I can fit. Or something along those lines . But yeah, clubbing baby seals is fine - had no issues with massed acolyte lists the 2 times I've taken them against more casual players. But everything I've come across more competitively has had Fly (I'm getting very sick of it - I just want to try my list when I can actually tie things up in combat ) and wrecked me. I did forget but mawloc very legit as well. Yeah, probably not a bad one to try. Don't have enough to 'spam' though, and I don't think they bring much for Cult. They're cheap, obnoxious nuisances with relatively minor output (1.5 MW on average per unit - I doubt I'd be able to get more than 2 or 3 units in range, probably only 1 or 2 I actually care about). So, they're supposed to be a disruption, muck up the backfield, take anti-tank guns to kill etc. All good things for nids (trygons do similar things with greater damage output, but are also ~twice the cost). But Cult? They've already got stuff running about doing a fair bit more than 'disrupting', need more than a few MW on key targets, and don't care about a few AT guns. They need an actual threat to back them up, not a (admittedly good at it) distraction carnifex. Add on the issues with space (very awkward if a mawloc blocked a Cult charge...) and the model opportunity cost with trygons...not seeing it with Cult. Do like the idea with nids though, if I don't have a strong use for a trygon tunnel - 100 pts for a few MW and an obnoxious MC sitting on your doorstep, very nice. Well to you to then. But yeah, 40k on a budget, it's annoying - buy up all this stuff for Cult (otherwise I would've got another mawloc or 2...) because I really liked the idea and the infantry play style. And now, nope. . HG spam might work (should have the bitz for 6 and 2 mals now - we'll see how they go, might be able to get enough for another 3 cheap-ish, but probably won't bother).
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Post by No One on Jul 24, 2017 11:33:01 GMT
Separate post for a couple of ideas (*it's my thread and I'll spam if I want to*): So, still want to try the HG+IG firebase with as many stealers/acos as I can fit - thinking about trying some small aco squads as well, just for the heck of it. Patrol HQ Mal Troop Neophytes (las HWT, grenade launcher) Troop Rippers (3) Elite HG (3, Impaler) Elite HG (3, Impaler) HS Biovore Battalion HQ Primus HQ Patriarch (familiar) HQ Primus Elite Stealers (20) Elite Stealers (19) Troops Acolytes (20, drill, saw, banner) Troops Acolytes (5) Troops Acolytes (5) Spearhead HQ Company Commander HS HWT (3xMortar) HS HWT (2xMortar, Lascannon) HS HWT (2xHB, Missile)
The other similar 2k list I'm considering is just to drop the HG for more acos . Will depend on how they work for me, I guess. And 1500 pts, without the HG: Outrider HQ Magus FA Mucolid FA Mucolid FA Spore (3) Battalion HQ Primus HQ Patriarch (familiar) Elite Stealers (20) Elite Stealers (19) Elite Haberrants Troops Acolytes (15, drill, saw) Spearhead HQ Company Commander HS HWT (3xMortar) HS HWT (2xMortar, Lascannon) HS HWT (2xHB, Missile)
For something slightly more different than 'drop acos for more expensive stealers': Trying the double trygon idea, instead at 2k: Battalion HQ Magus 73 HQ Magus 73 Troops Terms (25, devs) 200 Troops Horms (30, AG) 180 Troops Rippers (3) 33 HS Trygon Prime (bio spike, AG) 219 HS Trygon (toxinspike, AG) 180 HS Biovore 36 Vanguard HQ Primus 76 Elite Purestrain Stealers (20) 300 Elite Purestrain Stealers (19) 285 Elite Aberrants (4 hammers, 1 pick) 197 Spearhead HQ Company Commander 30 HS HWT (3xMortar) 27 HS HWT (2xMortar, Lascannon) 42 HS HWT (2xHB, Missile) 48 Total: 1999 Bunch of different ideas to try in there (maybe a few too many, though at least they're concepts that mesh) - see if trygons survive to be useful at 2k. Are aberrants worth it for AV with the smaller footprint (and as a bonus, pick for ablatives)? Can I pull off the horm+stealer combo, and do the devilgants mesh with that, or compromise it? And the IG firebase (which I honestly don't care much how it does output wise ). The double magus is eh, but who knows, might be able to footslog into range of stuff. Gives me CP for not much more than otherwise, which I'm actually finding really important for Cult, at least passing the 'minimum' of ~6 (especially at 2k). With the number of 8" charges I'd be going for there... really want those rerolls. Couldn't manage to get things to fit at 1500, so bumped it up to 2k and changed the useless chaff out for basically useless chaff .
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Post by No One on Jul 29, 2017 13:53:44 GMT
Had a game with a slight variant of the 1500 list without the HG above. Went very badly. Part of that was just poor play on my part (I was tired, I'll blame that ), and wanting to try some things. But yeah...it was really bad (essentially tabled killing a conscript. I would've actually ended up killing 2 hellhounds as well - patriarch was safe in combat with one on his turn, and both were injured to kill the 2nd on my turn. But still). I failed my T1 charge, and that was essentially GG. Once I failed that, I never felt that I had any answers to him. And he had a unit that was basically a hard counter to my army (vulture - flyer with 40 shots at S5, hitting on 4s. And it's still a durable chasis - T7 3+ 14 wounds. For 160 pts...) *Sigh* Honestly just not sure what to do with my Cult. I'm just feeling like nothing I do works, and it's really dispiriting. So. Moving on to nids. The base of the lists I'm toying with: Battalion HQ Mal HQ Swarmlord Troops Terms (25 devs) Troops Horms (30, AG) Troops Rippers (3) HS Trygon Prime (bio spike, AG) HS Trygon (toxinspike, AG) HQ Flyrant (MRC, AG/TS, deathspitter) HQ Flyrant (MRC, AG/TS, deathspitter) Elite T-guard (3, RC/AG/TS) Comes out to ~1700 pts (needs a bit of work for dets). So, relatively self contained there. Lots of MCs for durability vs infantry and tank killing, devilgants (and horms to a lesser extent) provide some very strong anti-infantry. With mal/t-guard or DS and target saturation, should be quite survivable. Now, what to add? 4 options, all ~300 pts (give or take - can fiddle with gaunts for the rest): Main ones: 6 hive guard to hang with the mal. 20 purestrains in an Aux. Also: Magus+20 acolytes in a patrol. Means that I don't cop the CP penalty and can take hypnosis+horror. However, I don't think it's really that sensible - Might, say, on the acos? Does get them above stealers against anything where S4->S5 is relevant. But really? Stealers still. So, it's more about the CP/hypnosis+horror/mind control. (The original idea was for a supreme command with 2 magus, primus and purestrains. But I don't have anywhere near the points for that - taking of that much from the above severely compromises it). However, what I might be able to do is take a magus in a nid detachment to make the HQ slots (e.g. filling out to a Supreme command). Don't know if it'd be worth, or if I'd have the points. 3rd flyrant (and probably fill out to stranglethorns). MC saturation, but I don't think it adds what I need. Which is more anti-infantry I think (5 strong anti-vehicle MCs already), take advantage of the horms and combo with them against wrap/non fly and grouped up targets. The HG...maybe? I prefer the idea of having some strong anti-infantry follow up on the horm charge - taking ~15-20 stealers without any back up feels a bit weird, but would probably work? Very CP intensive though (aux, reroll CA, reroll charge somewhere) and I don't have a huge amount (~6-7?).
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 29, 2017 16:00:57 GMT
No One batrep coming up later? My thoughts - since you're already bringing IG stuff, better to make Cult a reactionary force rather than the driving blow. We already went over why pure melee doesnt work - Cult CA driving blows are nearly pure melee. The alternative is to have more CA uses with Neophytes and using the Aco/Purestrains when and where they are really needed - but I dont think you have the models for it. Also - I'd like some thoughts from you about the AV list building in the GSC Faction Focus. I feel like I need another set of eyes to see what I'm not considering properly.
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Post by No One on Jul 30, 2017 9:02:32 GMT
My thoughts - since you're already bringing IG stuff, better to make Cult a reactionary force rather than the driving blow. We already went over why pure melee doesnt work - Cult CA driving blows are nearly pure melee. Already spent a lot on Cult as-is. I'm not going to throw more money away buying up enough IG to make an actual shooting component to try to get it to work if this doesn't. Also, that just doesn't feel like 'my' Cult. I've got a lot of acolytes that I'd like to actually field - I mean, stealers are pretty much objectively better (even now), but I've only got so many . And that's all I'd get to field really with a proper IG gunline - 40 stealers, primus, patriarch, something to make a det (probably haberrants for vanguard). *Shrug* But yeah, really just not feeling it at the moment. Basically every game, I didn't feel I had enough on the board to make enough of an impact. And that's not a good feeling to have in an army. Considering that I've lost more than I've won...the feeling's not exactly inaccurate . I've also been over it, and I'm honestly not as sure that melee driving blows couldn't work. Shooting brings engagement on elements you can't engage on with cult (stuff sitting at the back, Flyers) and stuff you don't really want to charge (mainly wrap/screens). Which is fine and good - desirable elements. But why can melee not be the strong engage? A strong assault opens them up so much, disrupts everything, army scattered (if Fly), or half useless (if not). What does it open them up to? Further assaults - there's no huge help in a shooting follow up. You disrupted everything, (ideally), everything's open to further charges. Keep them constantly engaged (if no Fly), or just hit whatever's applicable with more pts efficient damage (if Fly - because that's what melee should be, and mostly is). Now, how does this relate to Cult? I don't feel that Cult has reliable enough engages, and often doesn't hit hard enough when it does, outside of optimal conditions. But...I can think of 1 shooting element, in the entire game, that can prevent itself from working. That's plasma killing itself, or more specifically, plasma on russes preventing them from firing again. Which are totally optional, and pretty easy to mitigate in most circumstances - and also don't prevent themselves from working in that turn when they otherwise would (i.e. it's a 1 - it wouldn't have done anything anyway). So, shooting doesn't really have 'optimal' conditions - sure, you might roll a bit better than normal and get procs/full markerlights or whatever. But...basically every buff is guaranteed. No weapon can prevent itself firing. The only other thing is LoS really that could create 'suboptimal' conditions. Like the below: Eh, don't think it's worth it (also got another, more interesting one that I still want to do, and uni's coming up, so I won't have time). Summary: His deployment was pretty open for having 60 conscripts. Was table quarters - he had conscripts on the top flank, hellhounds on the left, manticores at the back. Gave him first (hadn't done that, have had first a lot. With only chaff on the table and no worry about tabling, wanted to see if he'd make a mistake and give me an opening. He didn't, and just further denied ). Killed my chaff. Stealer squad 1+patriarchs came on. Wanted a charge on a hellhound to wrap it and prevent it leaving, letting my stealers and patty escape unharmed. Failed a 6" (due to woods) charge, even with CP reroll. Welp. Vulture basically soloed the stealers. Other stealers came on - rolled a 4, everything would've been an 11" charge because of woods. (Well, probably could've come on and charged a unit of conscripts I guess...But that put me as far away from useful stuff to kill as I could be). Rerolled hoping for a 6 (he'd left his sole commissar sort of exposed). 1. Welp. Acos came on and with surviving patty, 1 wrapped a hellhound. Others failed there charge and promptly died. Vulture killed the stealers with some manticore help. As I said, wasn't playing at my best (I'll blame the fact that I was tired ). But even so - I don't now if I had a chance unless I dropped everything T1 and made all of my charges. About the only chance I think I had is, again, if everything went optimally - I rolled a good enough CA+charge to not only reach combat, but to surround the hellhounds. Either that, or everyone come on and make combat - 1 squad to clean up the hellhounds, and another to start work on the conscripts. But still - I don't know if I could've survived the resulting firepower unless I stayed safe in combat. ~9 dead from the vulture, another 9 dead from the manticores. That's 1 squad down (especially once you add in overwatch). Add on the conscripts, and my force is severely depleted. Now, the patriarchs probably could've run through his manticores and just kept tying them down. While remaining stealers mopped up the conscripts by killing commissar? Dunno - still left the vulture running amok. But probably, especially once you add on acolytes/chaff and the fact that it was big guns with 3 objectives on my side . (He did still have 2 scion squads in reserve as well though, so could've at least dropped on them to be annoying). But again - optimal conditions. For a probable win. If I didn't make both charges? 1 stealer squad dies to the conscripts (or hellhounds, depending on which made the charge), the other dies to the vulture+manticores. *Shrug* Yeah...when one 160 pt unit could basically kill most of my army by itself (~12 stealers each turn I think it killed)? And I had basically no way of dealing with it? (Could've mass hypnosis to drop BS, but that was denied anyway). Very survivable vehicle - even without Hard to Hit, it'd probably be one of the most durable non-SH chasis in the game. With? Not sure anything beats it, even once you add in special rules. *Sigh* When you feel that every army you run up against has a very strong counter to your army...it's probably your army, and not theirs . (I think this is also running into issues with everyone wanting to have stuff to deal with conscripts - 40 bodies is easy when you're wanting to be able to kill potentially 100+). Even leaving aside model issues (I do have some, but not enough for multiple squads once you add the HWT), I still need slots for them. I was toying with the idea (something nice and cheap to tie things down and be obnoxious). But...at that point, I'm just coming back to my 'trygons+AG horms'. Way more obnoxious, (probably) more reliable. Takes up 2 reserve slots, but is more effective and also more expensive (i.e. more pts efficient for those 2 slots), and as a bonus, takes up only 1 deployment. As to 'when and where they're really needed'? This ties into my issues with a 'scalpel' - they're usually needed. Neos aren't breaking a proper wrap (though they might get through a minor one e.g. 10 or 20 kroot in a thin line). And they aren't letting me engage on things further in the DZ by killing more important things (e.g. the hellhounds). All they can do is tie down and be a nuisance - and if they can't prevent the enemy leaving, forcing fall back doesn't help unless I've got stuff to benefit from the reduced shooting (i.e. purestrains). I have had 3 games where there wasn't a target I could CA charge that I didn't want dead - and that was wrap that I'm not sure neos could've handled (kroot+some pathfinders, with drones likely dumped next turn for more wrap anyway. And drones, with most of the stuff in reserve anyway - would've gone a bit different if I'd realised tabling wasn't a possibility T1, but anyway), and definitely couldn't handle (conscripts). So, I've basically always got potential targets that I want dead - neos can't do it well enough. So that leaves purestrains/acos to do all of the heavy lifting. And...well, there's only so much they can carry .
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 30, 2017 9:41:27 GMT
Well that's pretty disappointing but it sums up the feeling I had early on. I kinda want back my 100% null deploy, which I can use to make a very decent melee punch with enough tools to deal with everything I want to deal with - EG I would be able to send 3 Neophyte 20 men squads to deal with that Wrap (and make 60 bodies on the board for people to chew through). The opening then allows the purestrains and Acolytes to go in and wreck face.
"Scalpel" doesnt work with what you're trying to do though, which is basically wrecking ball smash your way through with melee. A Scalpel assumes you have tools to do the basic heavy duty work, usually from shooting, and need some more precise actions taken to take out a major threat (eg a Knight or a Baneblade, or a Swarmlord, eg eg eg). I dont think it works the way you want it to, which is 7th ed GSC playstyles (which I want back too cuz I have 80 bloody Acolytes...)
Good to take a break and come back to it in a couple of months, after eating face with the new and improved Nids.
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