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Post by kazetanade on Jul 4, 2017 16:42:29 GMT
Go buy more Genestealers and just bring 100 Genestealers. ¬_¬
It's a bad suggestion, I'm sorry.
Usual problems the list face would be the armor wall. It should be fine vs Conscript walls, although you're going to suffer some shooting on the big elements further back since you cant break the Conscript AND get the stuff behind them in the same turn. Armor walls or Transport walls... well... they may be an issue.
I'm not going to bother telling you that the all Fliers list from Boise is probably going to chew you up badly, I think you already know what. And that SM deployment with Girlyman buffs, if they dont do the greedy everything within 6" gets rerolls deployment, may be a tough issue.
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Post by almostmercury on Jul 4, 2017 18:09:02 GMT
Is the Stranglethorn really better than the Heavy Venom if you want to shoot T8?
I mean, it's great against infantry, but I don't think that will be your problem.
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Post by No One on Jul 5, 2017 2:10:58 GMT
Usual problems the list face would be the armor wall. It should be fine vs Conscript walls, although you're going to suffer some shooting on the big elements further back since you cant break the Conscript AND get the stuff behind them in the same turn. Armor walls or Transport walls... well... they may be an issue. I think I might? Would likely require some luck on my part, or them stuffing up and not screening properly. That said, if they haven't faced something like cult before, they likely will make errors there. Basically, if I can kill enough of the wall (ideally all of it), that should enable another squad to pile in+consolidate in on stuff behind it. In theory, anyway. In practice...well, it's still a case of, if they're within 3" of the screen, they're stuffed. I doubt that'll happen much though (that's the stuff up). The flyrant+HC combo could possibly jump the wall entirely? Haven't played around though - depending on how close the first move gets and how much space they leave, but 32" is a fair chunk (+1+D6 if I advance after a successful Onslaught). Transport walls...yeah...but that's also more points that aren't going to be doing much (unless Fly. Fly hurts). Also means they're in charge range of the flyrants and shooting range of the HG. Would actually likely just chuck the acos at it, and save the stealers for after I've opened a hole in it. Yeah. But, I think this list is far more able to take it on than others - flyrants+HC can basically kill one per turn, especially with HG/mining laser/smite etc back up. I could probably kill/cripple 2 at full output, maybe even 3 with luck, but luck. Compared to some almost mono cc lists around here, that might be very good lists, but would struggle against this match up . It's just...that list puts out a tonne of firepower. I wouldn't expect much of my ground stuff to survive the T1 alpha, or not enough to effectively counter attack. And then it's a up hill climb against superior mobility... That list is just very strong though - it's like the 6 flyrant lists in concept (shooting that can handle everything, while being quite survivable), while having far more firepower (but arguably less survivable - probably: hard to hit nerfs vs vehicle buffs to survivability). It's a spam list that works - and spam lists that work are very hard to counter, unless you have a spam list that is their counter (in this case, shooting...) I think basically any TAC nid/cult list is going to have a very hard time dealing with that sort of thing. Now, 1 or 2 flyers on the other hand...T6, meet Flying MRC . Eh...I think it'll still be a tough match up. But far more because assault razorbacks/Guilliman are really good, rather than it being a counter to my list. As a 'list concept', I think I'd struggle more going into DE, assuming they were 'balanced' perfectly, if that makes sense. Is the Stranglethorn really better than the Heavy Venom if you want to shoot T8? No, but only by ~10%. The more important point - it's not there to shoot T8, it's there to shoot T7/6. Basically, chaff vehicles/Fly vehicles/Flyers. The stuff that my guys will have a hard time catching and killing/neutering.
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Post by almostmercury on Jul 5, 2017 6:05:55 GMT
Forget the HVC. It isn't very good.
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Post by mrleonard on Jul 5, 2017 6:25:41 GMT
So, anyway. Mentioned it elsewhere - a couple of variants on the concept, but the one I'm most interested in: 2000 pts Supreme Command HQ Flyrant (MRC, AG/TS, Stranglethorn) HQ Flyrant (MRC, AG/TS, Stranglethorn) HQ Swarmlord Outrider HQ Magus Elite T-guard (3, RC/AG/TS) Elite Hive Guard (3, Impaler) FA Muco FA Muco FA Spore (3) Battalion (GSC) HQ Primus HQ Primus Elite Stealers (20) Elite Stealers (20) Troops Acolytes (10, saw, drill) Troops Neos (10, 2xmining, 2xgrenade) Troops Neos/Acolytes (min) OK, so. Thoughts behind it: stealers create very strong T1 pressure, able to engage on anything, murder infantry (or focus many other things) and lock down anything without fly. But (unless someone lets me proxy/counts as the above 100 stealer list) they don't have the survivability/models to hang around after that. They're essentially an incredibly dangerous suicide unit that can create a lot of havoc and require a lot of focus to down. But that focus means that everything else's left pretty much alone. So, to take advantage of that - need something that can follow up on the T1 pressure. Now, shooting elements could work for this (I like almostmercury's list for this) - but, I don't have the models to go all in on that. But, a handful of HG and some stranglethorns provide a bit. The more important part is the HC slingshot on 16" move elements that are quite good at anti-vehicle in melee. They're essentially the mop up - catch any Fly vehicles that want to escape, shooting to soften up mid vehicles, help finish off heavier vehicles etc. With 3 t-guard, hopefully can even survive T1 shooting (mal would be ideal for this, but alas - not likely to happen, as good at they are at current). With cat+horror on the flyrants, they might even let a stealer squad live. The amount of units lets me CA everything (bar Magus, who's still awkwardly footslogging), which means the neos can actually guard midfield . 24" range has hampered them a lot so far. Not sure on whether the min unit should be neo or aco, but anyway. Also a unit of acolytes for some vehicle mop up. That's the theory, anyway...several tweaks I'm not sure about (let alone the entire concept) - main one's whether I should have both flyrants and the HG, instead of some more acolytes to keep up that massed infantry melee pressure? (Variations on the list mostly involve swapping the SL+Flyrant for more trygon+devilgants, and also trying to squeeze in more acolytes. Taking acos instead of stealers stings though). Do you think it would be worth having a trygon in there with the swarmlord, keep one or both the flying hive tyrants, but just use the trygon to make sure the swarmlord hits the table whole, and so he can make sure the flyrants gets it's charge on turn 1 to keep up the preasure??? Plus the trygon can provide shooting support on turn 1 and then join the melee turn two. acolytes wise i messed around with demo acolytes and i'm a fan now cheap and put out a nice suprize burst of damage. they suck abit out of ambush as they only do anything with 5's and 6's.... i put mine in trucks... but you know that's a me thing . Otherwise it's tough to have more thoughts as most other things are outside the vonfines of your various detachments and at which points we get into scaffolding issues
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Post by No One on Jul 5, 2017 6:56:47 GMT
Do you think it would be worth having a trygon in there with the swarmlord, keep one or both the flying hive tyrants, but just use the trygon to make sure the swarmlord hits the table whole, and so he can make sure the flyrants gets it's charge on turn 1 to keep up the preasure??? Plus the trygon can provide shooting support on turn 1 and then join the melee turn two. Not sure what you mean about trygon helping the SL hit the table whole...do you mean tyrannocyte? A: Don't have. But no, I don't think it's worth it - that's an extra 150 pts, just to guarantee the combo goes off, when I'm not even sure about the combo at all? Trygon prime with devilgants is definitely something else I'm considering (see the last sentence). In addition though...that's taking a lot of points from other stuff - I think that'd likely mean the list is just trying to do too many things, and doesn't have the points to do any successfully. I'm concerned about that as is (melee CA, shooting HG, melee back up in flyrants/SL). Yeah, basically all of my acos are stock . I have 1 assembled with a saw, and I'm going to put another together with a drill. Re-assembling a third with demo mightn't be a bad idea. But no trucks .
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Post by mrleonard on Jul 5, 2017 7:30:26 GMT
Do you think it would be worth having a trygon in there with the swarmlord, keep one or both the flying hive tyrants, but just use the trygon to make sure the swarmlord hits the table whole, and so he can make sure the flyrants gets it's charge on turn 1 to keep up the preasure??? Plus the trygon can provide shooting support on turn 1 and then join the melee turn two. Not sure what you mean about trygon helping the SL hit the table whole...do you mean tyrannocyte? A: Don't have. But no, I don't think it's worth it - that's an extra 150 pts, just to guarantee the combo goes off, when I'm not even sure about the combo at all? Trygon prime with devilgants is definitely something else I'm considering (see the last sentence). In addition though...that's taking a lot of points from other stuff - I think that'd likely mean the list is just trying to do too many things, and doesn't have the points to do any successfully. I'm concerned about that as is (melee CA, shooting HG, melee back up in flyrants/SL). Yeah, basically all of my acos are stock . I have 1 assembled with a saw, and I'm going to put another together with a drill. Re-assembling a third with demo mightn't be a bad idea. But no trucks . Yeah i meant the trannocyte... don't tell any of the other nid players... but i find the nid naming scheme very difficult to remember what anything is off the top of my head lmao!!!. Well i think the tyrannocyte is nice because it just provides some nice shooting on top of your melee force so that way you can make sure a thing is dead on top of protecting your SL to get what ever you want in, but if your not down your not down. Yeah the demos areo nly really yummy in a transport i personally prefer the truck because.... i'm me, but also the threat range of 12" + 6" is better than the 9"+6" from disembarking from a transport. you've used this list yet??? have any batreps on how it went down??/ Do you think it would be worth combining your magus and primus into a patriarch?? This is one of those changes that ruins the whole framework of your list as you start droping detachments which result is droping lots of other stuff haha!!.
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Post by No One on Jul 5, 2017 7:59:18 GMT
Do you think it would be worth combining your magus and primus into a patriarch?? This is one of those changes that ruins the whole framework of your list as you start droping detachments which result is droping lots of other stuff haha!!. The 2nd sentence is right - the Magus is there because he's the 2nd cheapest HQ for a nid det (only iconward cheaper), and the most useful. Outside of mal - mal would be good, but I doubt I'd be organised enough to get a mal sorted (and the HG, because that's also a planned conversion), and I wouldn't be surprised by an FAQ on that . Not yet. Only tried out a handful of the lists mentioned here.
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Post by No One on Jul 8, 2017 15:13:20 GMT
So anyway - having tried the 1500 list on the last page out a bit, issues: Main one is the neophytes. 4 lascannon shots isn't bad (even hitting on 4s), but they suffer very heavily from the short range. The reserve elements push the opponent back and hold them back - outside of the neos threat range, especially when they're often deployed back to guarantee they survive a T1 alpha strike. This could be partly circumvented by waiting until they engage on the neos to bring in the reserves - but, that's incredibly risky, with being tabled a very real possibility. So, really don't like the idea. Not sure what to replace with though, with the list as is - possibly just a HWT, or drop the weapons entirely and use them as min troops/bodies? I don't think there's anything else I've got that I could sub in, both from a 'CA slots' perspective' and a 'don't be tabled'... Acolytes...eh...dunno. They're not stealers I guess . Term+trygon: Devilgants put out a lot of firepower. Which is good. But the combo itself also costs a lot - and they suffer from damage fall off in subsequent turns (either due to dying, or due to being out of range). While the trygon...hasn't impressed. I think it needs to make the 8" charge - except it's not an 8" charge, because I want to put the devilgants in range of what they want to kill (usually bubble wrap). Which they do - so now it's a longer charge. (Even if this wasn't the case, an 8" charge is tricky without CP. Which I'll also want to use on the CA charges...) It can do things next turn, with 9" move it's not bad at making combat - providing it doesn't degrade into uselessness or just die. More testing before I write it off though - it might just be that it really falls down against mobile armies, and more static stuff I can tie down with the stealers and then trygon/devilgants mop up as it were. Also, comparison of devilgants with mortar HWT makes me sad .
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Post by No One on Jul 9, 2017 13:25:37 GMT
Well, realised I can add in a IG det instead of the trygon+gaunts. Which'd likely do much better - I'm just not exactly sure where it'd fit in (and whether I want it enough/there aren't other better options to warrant me actually making purchases...) Something like: 1500 pts: Outrider Magus FA Muco FA Muco FA Spore (3) Battalion HQ Primus HQ Patriarch (familiar) Elite Stealers (20) Elite Stealers (20) Troops Neos (10, 2xmining) Troops Neos (10, 2xmining) Troops Acolytes (5) Spearhead HQ Pask (BC, 2xMM, Las) HS Russ (BC, 2xHB, Las) HS Mortar HWT HS Mortar HWT Acos just for CP, and will probably just come on T3 to hang around an objective. Not sure about the neos, but with the fact that they can actually CA...I'm not sure I like taking equal pts in acos due to the low number, especially if I want to fill out a battalion. Very uncertain on the sponsons - the 'short' range on the melta worries me. But as long as it can move into range, it's fine...still considering plasma sponsons (overcharge is very risky, but I can get reroll 1s from an order. More importantly, 36" and still decent against mid T vehicles even without overcharged). But I think it's a tad lackluster without overcharging, which I still think is too risky. Other than that, I actually don't mind it for 1500 pts - it's just: A. Would the SL+Flyrant+t-guard be a better replacement? Is the melee follow up better than the shooting pressure? What is more survivable, and able to function? B. Do they have a place in other lists? I think A is definitely the russ' for that list. But at 2k...not as sure - more firepower coming in, and I don't want to get that many russes . Not sure if they'd be able to fit. (Why russes over manticores? Because I can get them cheaper . But they're actually very decent with orders, and Pask is actually very good (though pricey). Add to that I want to be able to use them with Cult if IG doesn't work out for whatever reason/if I feel like it...) Still not sure - but considering things. Also, I'm feeling really irritated by the lack of acolytes in my lists...so, with that: Outrider HQ Magus FA Muco FA Muco FA Spore (3) Battalion HQ Primus HQ Patriarch (familiar) HQ Primus Elite Stealers (20) Elite Stealers (20) Troops Acolytes (17) Troops Acolytes (16) Troops Acolytes (20, drill, saw) Spearhead HQ Pask (BC, 2xMM, Las) HS Russ (BC, 2xHB, Las) HS Mortar HWT HS Mortar HWT
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Post by No One on Jul 13, 2017 13:07:02 GMT
OK, bat rep of the 1500 pt list (that I don't think I actually posted here: variant on the 2k one) here. Had a game with the 2k list on previous page, against Tau (again - they seem to be popular...). Lost fairly badly - this was partly due to godly rolls on his part (I think he rolled more hits than misses for his anti-tank overwatch...which included a railgun double 6. Twice). But even without that, he should've won. Considering that I also seized, and while attack rolling was (with one exception) very meh, I did roll very well with CA. The concepts behind the list...showed potential? First squad of stealers came in on the bubble wrap (I'm thinking about having a dedicated 'wrap breaker' squad. But with CA unreliability...the trygon+devilgant combo does so. But it's even more expensive than 20 stealers+primus, and I'm not sure that's worth it. And if they don't have bubble wrap...), flyrant+HC jumps the bubble wrap and assaults his tanks, other flyrant assaults a part of the wrap that had scouted forward (likely would've been able to assault another part of the wrap though). Stealers killed that wrap, letting the flyrant consolidate into combat with a vehicle. But, due to overwatch knocking 9 wounds of my catalysed flyrant, and my other flyrant rolling meh, only 2 wounds were dealt. Then, well...continued good rolling to kill both flyrants . Still think they may have a place (especially with my limited model pool ) - just not sure the best way. Also considering holding them back, sending in cult as the first wave, then jump in over any remaining wrap to smite/stranglethorn/assault anything important. But again - that comes back to durability. How durable are they, even with t-guard? Can I afford to do that for (likely - I've gone first every game so far, despite placing last in basically every game...) 2 shooting phases? Dunno. HG, again, the concept seems solid - they were in range the entire game, and even out of LoS of his army. Just, they whiffed their first round, then he dropped a quad missile commander to kill them. However, I could definitely see them being ignored - stealers put on a lot of pressure, and if they don't have some unengaged element, like the commander...I'd see everything going into stealers/flyrants, letting HG plink away. This was definitely the case with the neos, who were ignored. First volley was great (10 wounds!), but they did nothing after that . you've used this list yet??? have any batreps on how it went down?? See above. Will do up a bat rep sometime next week. Will also (hopefully) be using a slight variant of the list soon. Probably against DE, which (along with Tau...) I think is going to be one of the biggest issues I'll face (outside of the obvious 'all flyers' ).
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Post by No One on Jul 17, 2017 13:31:51 GMT
So, was spending a bit of time ruminating over the weekend (family trip, lots of driving). The issue I have with the flyrants+SL is just that durability - even with 3 MCs, I think most armies will have the anti-tank guns to deal with them. Thus I'm putting them in a position where they're going to die without making enough of an impact to warrant taking - they offer a lot of things that Cult lacks (the key being consistent mobility, but also shooting, some psychic support in smite/horror/cat, Fly to jump and catch things etc). This issue I'm finding (preliminary testing only ) is that they lack durability - this is fine if the unit has good output (which...they're not bad, but pt for pt even acolytes win out over flyrants into T7, which is where most of my issues lie), or can be spammed in enough numbers to continue to have impact after losses, and then they start to kill things and both sides have a degradation in numbers. The issue with this is that flyrants (while not super expensive), aren't carnifex level cheap - you can't just take more of them without really starting to remove other list elements. So...Coming back to a list concept I had before - the trygon+devilgants. The issue with this I had was that, while the devilgants worked well for the purposes that I took them for, it's very expensive - the trygon needs to pull its weight for it to be in any way worth it. Which runs into issues with dropping an MC right into the enemy army with infantry for back up - gets instantly obliterated by any anti-tank weapons. But, if there was also a couple of flyrants in their face as well...you can start to force the issue a bit: So, again a variant of the 2k list: Supreme Command HQ Flyrant (MRC, AG/TS, Stranglethorn) HQ Flyrant (MRC, AG/TS, Stranglethorn) HQ Swarmlord Patrol HQ Magus Elite T-guard (3, RC/AG/TS) Troop Termagants (25, devourers) FA Mucolid HS Trygon Prime (3xscy tals, bio spike, AG/TS) Vanguard (GSC) HQ Primus Elite Stealers (20) Elite Stealers (19) Elite Aberrrants (Hammers) 2000 pts Not entirely sure about some list elements, if they really fit the concept (haberrants? Magus??) - when working it out in my head, it all fit better...I think I've just run into issues with Detachments. Would maybe like to drop the magus+aberrants for another flyrant, to have it more MC focused with stealer/devilgant anti-infantry back up: but then I don't have the right detachments...eh. Could swap the magus out for a mal, possibly? Now that the mal's been FAQed to definitely be 90 pts, much happier to try and sort out a conversion/rules, and that helps a lot with that T1 survivability on the flyrants. The flip side of this idea of not even bothering with a hybrid (i.e. MC/Tank+Infantry) list is just to dump the MCs all together, and go all in with the cult. But...that needs really chaff-ey IG or useful and cheap stuff (IG, biovores - neos with HWT can fudge it), and has serious issues with diversity (oh hi any flyer whatsoever). But (and this is why spam can be so effective) - their anti-tank weapons would be almost literally useless. For example, DE with 3 ravagers: ~450 pts that will do almost nothing bar speed bump/be minor nuisances. If you can run a 2k list into an (effectively) 1500 list...well, something's going to have to be very imbalanced for you to not have a very serious chance of victory. Of course, this is where CA slots comes into it: if you've got to spend 450 pts to get those melee elements in there anyway...what advantage do you have? (Was tossing around with a list based on this, but it'd essentially be just a 'for "funsies"' list - nasty, but too mono focused with targets and with such bloat for CA that I wouldn't want to run it in a serious context. Would brutally murder any semi-competitive player/no bubble wrap, but wouldn't be consistent enough/could be shut down by tournament lists. Maybe if I sort something out with mortars?? Eh).
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 17, 2017 14:58:04 GMT
15 Lascannons hidden in loads of bodies that demand to be dealt with from long range is pretty effective. I've not tested, but I'm theoratically satisfied with a 90 body Neophyte ground presence list with Lascannon HWTs and a few Lascannon sentinels, and putting almost everthing else into CA.
That's for 2.5k though but the concept runs even for 2k.
Bubblewrap is a tiny problem yes, since the wrap killer is technically the Genestealers that also kill everything else. Still I wager having like 8 CA units then ICs after that should have some kick even after a Genestealer or 2 are absorbed by bubblewrap.
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Post by No One on Jul 17, 2017 15:15:52 GMT
15 Lascannons hidden in loads of bodies that demand to be dealt with from long range is pretty effective. I've not tested, but I'm theoratically satisfied with a 90 body Neophyte ground presence list with Lascannon HWTs and a few Lascannon sentinels, and putting almost everthing else into CA. Yeah, that's something I've considered - am very seriously considering grabbing a couple of 2nd hand HWT for my neos, just for when I want them for CA slots (because double mining CA can do work - it's more an 'if there's slots' thing though, than a 'make slots for this'). But A: Only 1 las (could get bitz, and am planning on getting some mortars/other bitz to make a couple of IG mortar teams) B: Only enough for 2 neo squads at the moment - didn't get enough DW:O, just the acos from them . So, that still comes back to needing other stuff - I've got ideas (biovores, astropaths, again mortar HWT, more las neos, las sentinels etc), it's just a case of: are any of these practical to get, and are they even worth it? Yep, that was essentially the thinking behind the list. A stealer unit (or acolyte, because only so many stealers) kills every infantry hiding anything of importance, and then every other unit comes in. The issue then becomes, making that initial charge: CA is more reliably getting charges, but it's not that reliable. So then, chucking how many down to get that charge on the wrap? Which is why I came back to the devilgants - it's basically the only reliable method we have. Stealers are cheaper and more effective - but CA introduces a measure of unreliability. Which is bad when you want to sacrifice the minimal amount of resources needed. But the only way to stop a trygon+devilgant drop is to table T1. Now, is that reliability worth it? And that's where I came back to needing some way to get the trygon to work as well . I think it could definitely work - but any list I make (by current model restrictions) has that bloat, taking up ~15-20% of my points in useless or almost useless stuff that basically just prevents the tabling. I could probably consolidate down on the CA numbers a bit (from memory, that was ~9-10 slots for ~380 pts), but still - that doesn't change much. Add on a complete inability to deal with Flyers (there was a 6 Flyer list taken to the most recent tournament here - did only come 19/40 though I guess?), and possible issues with mobile/durable Fly armies (e.g. Tau transports)? I think the concept has potential, but I doubt my ability to make it work with what I've got/can expect to get in the near future.
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Post by kazetanade on Jul 17, 2017 15:28:11 GMT
Yea your collection is a little small compared to what I have. Between me and the shop assistant we have like 140 Neophytes, so with a little bribery I can loan like 40 painted Neophytes + my own 50 in collection.
I'm getting 2 new boxes of HWT. I intend to magnetize it for every single option, and loan the last 3 I need for most lists from a friend whom I'll be contributing to their AM collection to collectively share the whole lot. That gives me access to another 60 or so bodies I need in case of Conscripts, as well as 3+ leman russes and 3 baneblades.
Since you're trying to do it on a budget instead of just taking the best stuff - you're better off supplementing things with bigger units that have a lot of kick, like Exocrines and Flyrants / Swarmlord. Actually, why not drop the Swarmlord and T-Guard for a Malan and Trygon w/ Devilgants? Remove the Hammers until you're looking at a bigger points size? Stuff like that. Like no offense, but pure melee and 90% melee lists just suck balls once the enemy starts playing a bit less derp with the new edition. Melee expensive answers are just flat worse than expensive shooting answers.
Flier lists arent actually that scary - you just need enough guns to pelt the air and degrade 2 or so. Cult Ambush a Magus to mindcontrol a 3rd and pelt it into the previous 2 or pelt a new one, then slowly start taking them down. Once you kill half of them... do you really care about losing 20 Genestealers and 60 Neophyte? You auto-win just sitting on objectives when there's only 2-3 degraded planes left. I am literally only scared of 6 Assault Cannon Fliers, since it's pretty much the hard counter to GSC period. Take down the AC ones with the anti-vehicle planes and you're prtty good off.
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