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Post by No One on Jun 25, 2017 13:41:36 GMT
OK, should have a 2k game on Wednesday. Thoughts on the following list (or should I go with a variant of the first one? Means I don't have to rip one of my flyrant's wings of to turn him into SL ): 2000 pts Battalion (Nids) HQ Swarmlord 300 HQ Flyrant (MRC, 2xdeathspitters, pincer, AG/TS) 200 Elite T-guard (2, RC/AG/TS) 78 Troops Terms (30, 25 devs) 220 Troops Stealers (20) 240 Troops Rippers (3) 33 HS Trygon Prime (3xscy tals, bio spike, AG) 219 Battalion (GSC) HQ Primus 76 HQ Magus 73 Troops Acolytes (17) 187 Troops Acolytes (17) 187 Troops Acolytes (17) 187 So, fairly simple idea - dependant on stuff, of course. But terms drop down, blow away any wrap (ideally), and SL slingshots stealers into combat. Acolytes either come in T1 to help tie down/mop up (dependant on stealers/what I think gaunts can handle), or come down T2 when screens are hopefully gone. Flyrants, well: Sits back with their t-guard, then use him as a mobile engagement if they have mobile elements (Flyers, DE, DS), HC ideal if available for ~30" move. Stranglethorn so he can chip away at mobile vehicles/transports/anything from further back with the guard. Also mop up/objective grabbing. But that's because my list has a mobile initial position, but no mobility after the fact. DE (or honestly, anything with decent move and Fly) was something I was really not sure how to deal with when writing the list. So, hence flyrant. No idea if he'll work well enough, but hey. Worth a shot.
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 28, 2017 20:02:59 GMT
I will ask only 1 question:
How are you going to deal with a heavily mechanized army?
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Post by autoxidation on Jun 29, 2017 1:24:15 GMT
Yeah I agree with kazetanade. Your list is sorely lacking on anti-vehicle weapons. You're pretty limited to walking monsters and the Flyrant for heavy hitters, and the Genestealers may possibly put some wounds on a t& vehicle but will struggle against a T8 vehicle. You're looking at an average of 8.8 wounds dealt from 80 Genestealer attacks on a T8 vehicle, and I find it highly unlikely a full uit of Genestealers will make it across the board with all 20 models to strike a vehicle before taking casualties.
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Post by No One on Jun 29, 2017 4:40:10 GMT
How are you going to deal with a heavily mechanized army? Assault it, duh . But seriously, it is a bit of an issue I have with the list (and I will probably do some surgery on some of my metas to change them into mining weapons so I can have an anti-AV squad). I don't think it's as big an issue though, especially for a heavily mechanised list - I think, outside of some exceptions, that good screens will shut it down harder still. Namely, if I assault them, I don't need to kill them. They aren't doing anything next turn, and even acos can keep running after pretty much any vehicle. Now, there's exceptions to this (transports, vehicles with Fly, transports with Fly - DE will likely give me fits). But even still - I can almost take down light transports with one squad, and even the heavier ones I can tag team/degrade. Fly stuff is (all?) <T8, and a lot is T6 and/or 4+ as well. When most shooting platforms are heavy, and thus even with Fly they're coping a -1 (relatively likely to be -2 due to degradation). Of course, this is assuming that all goes well and I get my assaults off - but, that's not an issue against a mechanised list, and is either an issue with CA randomness or wrap/screens. A mix, focusing more towards the vehicle side could be very nasty though (IG). Then you've got flyrant/SL to actually kill stuff - I'll likely need to take first turn for them to actually survive though, but if the rest of my army can start tying things down...flyrant can catch and kill/degrade vehicles pretty easily, especially with HC. (At least, that's the idea...) I find it highly unlikely a full uit of Genestealers will make it across the board with all 20 models to strike a vehicle before taking casualties. Well, SL means they're very likely getting a T1 charge if I go first...
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Post by autoxidation on Jun 29, 2017 4:44:25 GMT
Well, SL means they're very likely getting a T1 charge if I go first... Any competent enemy is not going to put his vehicles so far forward on his deployment zone and without screening units.
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Post by No One on Jun 29, 2017 5:45:04 GMT
Any competent enemy is not going to put his vehicles so far forward on his deployment zone and without screening units. Ish? I mean, it depends on a couple of things. Namely: A. Deployment type. H&A, then no, I shouldn't be able to get a T1 charge off without crazy luck, true. But DoW? The average movement for the stealers is 23" (considering I'd almost certainly CP a botched advance in the shooting phase as well...), while they have only 12" deployment gap. When you add on the size of vehicles...even going side on, that's a very feasible charge. B: Screening is an issue, which I mentioned - but I think that's more an issue that this will have with screens, than an issue it'll have against mech armies (unless also Fly...). Depending on how heavily mechanised it is, it'll often have less pts for dedicated screening - token screening will get wiped by the devilgants, and stuff that's just shoe horned into the role won't be able to do so well enough, and will usually be more expensive. e.g. That razorback list - the marines would be able to bubble wrap/screen the razorbacks. But to do so reliably, block out the stealers, block out the acolytes, and still do so after getting shot by the devilgants? Definitely doable - but would likely require most of the tac squads. Who'll then die. Now, the flip side is they'll go first due to having stuff in transports and thus less drops, so the stealers will get shot to pieces before making combat. But, doing that will make it more difficult to screen off the acolytes after pile in/deaths/consolidate - not impossible by any means, but difficult. Of course, conscripts can do so very well and for cheap. But...conscripts. On the flip side, conscripts mean I'd likely go first, stealers+devilgants should?? be able to clear them out, and then the acos can have fun in the backfield. Stealers would die, but hey - can't have everything.
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 29, 2017 6:49:45 GMT
Actually what i see is a single or at most 2 razorbacks taken in that T1, assuming you actually go first. I dont see 17 Acolytes killing a razorback, although degrading it is possible. Them what's inside spills out, rapidfires the Acolytes to death, while the undamaged razorbacks pour hell into the genestealers.
To be fair though that IS almost 80 bodies and while Twinned ACs will rip it all up, he may not be able to rip up enough units once the clusterfuck happens and more keeps coming.
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Post by No One on Jun 29, 2017 7:13:43 GMT
Actually what i see is a single or at most 2 razorbacks taken in that T1, assuming you actually go first. I dont see 17 Acolytes killing a razorback, although degrading it is possible. Them what's inside spills out, rapidfires the Acolytes to death, while the undamaged razorbacks pour hell into the genestealers. Multi assault. My aim (though it may not be possible depending on what my opponent does with where the razorbacks/other marines are) would be to assault everything - probably try to focus down one and just have one or two into the other razorbacks. Sure, the occupants can get out and rapid fire down my acos. But the razorbacks are most of the firepower (especially anti-infantry) - even with Guilliman, 15 rapid fire bolters isn't enough to kill 17 acolytes on average (~16 dead). Of course, heavy/special and morale would finish off. But...who cares? I've still got another 34 and 20 stealers (of course, unlikely to go first, so I'd expect most of the stealers to be dead ), plus 30 devilgants. Kill off the marines, and keep chasing the razorbacks while playing Benny Hill music . Of course, overwatch may turn it into a war of attrition that I'd lose. Would depend on if the preds could kill of flyrant/SL/Trygon before getting tied up themselves I guess (I'd guess no. I'd expect them to take out 1 per turn in Guilliman bubble - but if they're in Guilliman bubble, it means they're close to the razorbacks ). Though...Guilliman would make it awkward, now that I mention him. But doable, I think.
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Post by kazetanade on Jun 29, 2017 7:29:15 GMT
Yea.... no. Multi assault isnt happening unless he does a bad deployment for you. To be fair, it could happen. Most marines tend to park their vehicles close to each other. If he's going for the Girlyman bubble for the entire army then its going to be pretty compact, hence making a bad deployment for you to take advantage of. And if you're going second, with the TAC range of 24" only I'd wager your genestealers are actually pretty safe if you deploy right.
Wraps aren't a thing with marines so your Trygon Prime comes up on one end with Termagants. Your Acolytes go into the middle or side with the genestealers. You have some super clysterfuck and he'll have issues sorting it out on the turn it comes down. If he sacrifices the TAC Razorsbacks like i think he will (they'll be closer front due to the range) then you just need to walk SL up there next and cut them down one by one as they try to get back to shooting range. Girlyman will eat up most of the army after but you'll outscore whatever's left.
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Post by No One on Jun 29, 2017 7:39:31 GMT
Honestly, most people I've played have either 'normal deployment' (which would mean bunch up around Guilliman), or 'bunch up and hope for the best' when faced with GSC (yes, I have had someone bunch up in a corner when playing me, having played Cult before - as you'd expect, it was a bloodbath).
Spreading out would make multi assaults...inconvenient. But it'd also drastically cut down on their firepower, losing Guilliman buff for most, and either letting me focus down the 'flank' razorbacks, or focus down the centre with Guilliman/preds. (Ideally - random marines hanging around outside transports could make this awkward). And, if you don't mind hitting like a wet noodle, you can totally multi assault completely disparate things. Stretch max coherency between them, declare both as targets, and have half the squad hanging around awkwardly in the middle. But doable, and potentially well worth it for the cut in firepower.
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Post by No One on Jul 3, 2017 12:08:57 GMT
OK, with the new Purestrain Errata: 1500 pts: Outrider HQ Magus Troops Terms (30, 25 devs) HS Trygon Prime (3xscy tals, bio spike, AG) HS Biovore FA Muco FA Muco FA Spore (3) Battalion (GSC) HQ Primus HQ Primus Elite Stealers (17) Elite Stealers (17) Troops Acolytes (15, 2 saws) Troops Neos (10, 2xmining, 2xgrenade) Troops Neos (10, 2xmining, 2xgrenade) So, initial impressions based on 1 turn (haven't finished the game yet). Hits very hard, still doesn't like wrap, and still lacks staying power a bit. The mining laser neos...I half like them, I half don't. The 24" range hurts something that's wanting to be sitting backfield on objectives due to no CA slots. But, they sort of deny movement as well. Essentially mid/backfield board control. 4 lascannon's provides some shooting if, say, a Fly transport/vehicle wants to escape the melee elements. Also lets you shoot DS and protect backfield objectives and stuff, but the mining lasers don't really help in that. Actually forgot to deploy the biovore . Terms+trygon provides a decent, if expensive follow up, with the range on the devs mitigating the 9" deployment, while the trygon gets 9" move for next turn charges. Possibly better off with more stealers . But acolytes...if they don't get the charge, they're 6". While stealers get 8+D6". Magus still having issues with range footslogging, but cheap HQ. Theoretical (well, unless I proxy all of my acolytes as stealers as well - everything else I could do, I guess, which is why it may look a bit odd): Outrider (Nids) HQ Magus Troops Neophytes (10) Troops Neophytes (10) FA Muco FA Muco FA Spore FA Spore Vanguard (GSC) HQ Primus HQ Patriarch Elite Purestrain Stealers (20) Elite Purestrain Stealers (20) Elite Purestrain Stealers (20) Elite Purestrain Stealers (20) Elite Purestrain Stealers (20) 100 stealers. Have fun with that. 20 neos to not get tabled turn 1. Could possibly use stuff other than mucos/spores (guard are likely to be a good one for this) for the CA slot requirements, possibly allowing double Vanguard (or more CP in the chaff det/s) and/or another Primus. Feel that it does lack the CA rerolls a bit, but 40/60 stealers and then another 60/40 stealers isn't bad. Want to do a list to take advantage of the T1 pressure, with something to run back up. But...not sure how to do so. I just don't know if anything nids have is mobile enough, outside of SL combo/more stuff in reserve's that's probably done better by Cult. IG shooting though...maybe?? Just...eh, dunno. Hive Guard (and possibly exo, though HG I'm at least planning on converting) seem like they might be good - Cult can burn infantry just fine. Vehicles (especially Fly...annoying rule, that), bit more trouble. Probably have to be Impaler for the range. The issue I see with doing that, is...them getting shot off the table .
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Post by almostmercury on Jul 3, 2017 21:53:33 GMT
Your stealers come on turn 1, don't they? So you shouldn't be getting tabled that fast.
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Post by No One on Jul 4, 2017 0:46:24 GMT
Your stealers come on turn 1, don't they? So you shouldn't be getting tabled that fast. Tabled happens end of turn, not battle round. This is a massive distinction if going 2nd (which...look at that unit count. Yes ). Since spores don't count for not being tabled...
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Post by almostmercury on Jul 4, 2017 1:07:44 GMT
Well that is an important rule to know and one more reason that going second is the dumbest (please do not swear) idea available.
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Post by No One on Jul 4, 2017 15:18:58 GMT
So, anyway. Mentioned it elsewhere - a couple of variants on the concept, but the one I'm most interested in: 2000 pts Supreme Command HQ Flyrant (MRC, AG/TS, Stranglethorn) HQ Flyrant (MRC, AG/TS, Stranglethorn) HQ Swarmlord Outrider HQ Magus Elite T-guard (3, RC/AG/TS) Elite Hive Guard (3, Impaler) FA Muco FA Muco FA Spore (3) Battalion (GSC) HQ Primus HQ Primus Elite Stealers (20) Elite Stealers (20) Troops Acolytes (10, saw, drill) Troops Neos (10, 2xmining, 2xgrenade) Troops Neos/Acolytes (min) OK, so. Thoughts behind it: stealers create very strong T1 pressure, able to engage on anything, murder infantry (or focus many other things) and lock down anything without fly. But (unless someone lets me proxy/counts as the above 100 stealer list) they don't have the survivability/models to hang around after that. They're essentially an incredibly dangerous suicide unit that can create a lot of havoc and require a lot of focus to down. But that focus means that everything else's left pretty much alone. So, to take advantage of that - need something that can follow up on the T1 pressure. Now, shooting elements could work for this (I like almostmercury's list for this) - but, I don't have the models to go all in on that. But, a handful of HG and some stranglethorns provide a bit. The more important part is the HC slingshot on 16" move elements that are quite good at anti-vehicle in melee. They're essentially the mop up - catch any Fly vehicles that want to escape, shooting to soften up mid vehicles, help finish off heavier vehicles etc. With 3 t-guard, hopefully can even survive T1 shooting (mal would be ideal for this, but alas - not likely to happen, as good at they are at current). With cat+horror on the flyrants, they might even let a stealer squad live. The amount of units lets me CA everything (bar Magus, who's still awkwardly footslogging), which means the neos can actually guard midfield . 24" range has hampered them a lot so far. Not sure on whether the min unit should be neo or aco, but anyway. Also a unit of acolytes for some vehicle mop up. That's the theory, anyway...several tweaks I'm not sure about (let alone the entire concept) - main one's whether I should have both flyrants and the HG, instead of some more acolytes to keep up that massed infantry melee pressure? (Variations on the list mostly involve swapping the SL+Flyrant for more trygon+devilgants, and also trying to squeeze in more acolytes. Taking acos instead of stealers stings though).
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