Had my second Genestealer Cult game

[No One]

It's also very expensive (345 pts with the banner), going to die as well (you're striking at I1 too) and very reliant on the 6 (with only ~40% chance of actually getting it). I think a saw in a bigger unit mightn't be a bad idea, just as a bit of a knight deterrent, or for a bit more reliability with transport popping, but I think it's too expensive to really go all in on (and probably not effective enough, with 25 pts for 2 attacks when charged). Either that or build up a big deathstar with broodcoven/magus' for some psychic defensive powers (and probably iconward with cult relic, because why not go all in on that ) - sub uprising would work great, if it was more reliable. I mean, in the detachment, it's not too bad (with shrouded T1), but that's then very vulnerable to ignores cover, and still going to die to massed anti-infantry. Though something I've thought about with sub uprising is taking the 1 to go back into ongoing if you don't get the 6 (and wouldn't be able to survive) - 70% chance of getting one or the other.

[cheesytom1]

Out of interested, how would you kit your Neophytes?

More towards close engagement so: shotguns and flamers
Or long range with heavy weapon teams.
Or a mix, or keep them cheap?

I'm building a load from Catchan warriors with the intention of selling half, and keeping the other half. Want to start building today so that I can sell them for release but this information would be helpful to me.

Thanks.

[No One]

Personally, I'd go close range - either cheap with shotguns+flamers, or with a bit more punch and auto/las+seismic cannons (probably with grenades as well). Long range...maybe some auto-cannons/heavy stubbers. It depends on exactly what you're doing with them, but in cult detachment (and if you're running neophytes, why not?), you're going to be using cult ambush and return to the shadows a lot I'd say. So then you've got those short range deployment options - taking weapons to properly make use of that seems the way to go for me. If you're just wanting some cheap backfield objective holders, then auto-cannons and maybe heavy stubbers.

[cheesytom1]

Sept 30, 2016 11:24:19 GMT No One said:

Personally, I'd go close range - either cheap with shotguns+flamers, or with a bit more punch and auto/las+seismic cannons (probably with grenades as well). Long range...maybe some auto-cannons/heavy stubbers. It depends on exactly what you're doing with them, but in cult detachment (and if you're running neophytes, why not?), you're going to be using cult ambush and return to the shadows a lot I'd say. So then you've got those short range deployment options - taking weapons to properly make use of that seems the way to go for me. If you're just wanting some cheap backfield objective holders, then auto-cannons and maybe heavy stubbers.

Yeah, I was thinking something along those lines.

Especially liking shotguns with flamers, since shotguns are free and flamers are 5pts each.

[N.I.B.]

Can we do the math with The First Curse against an IK? Assuming the Curse unit gets the charge on the IK (and lets say they get a useless random power for the matchup like poison and no Familiars for the Patriarch), what are we looking at here?

Patriarch goes first, there's a 50% chance of a rend and at least one hull point (S6 vs AV12). Purestrains - 50 hits, ~8 rends, ~5,6 additional hull points.

My math-fu is weak, but it looks like that on average, assuming all models get to strike, The First Curse kills an Imperial Knight on the charge before it can swing back. Chance looks to be slightly above 50%. Not bad!

And there's a 50% chance that the Purestrains will get a power that helps in the fight (Rage or Feeder Tendrils). Buffs from the Sacred Cult Banner are not unlikely (+1S on the charge) and Might From Beyond blessing (+1S).

So, your bog-standard First Curse looks to be a decent answer to an IK, provided they get into combat in good shape. Most Cult armies can easily pack two Purestrain broods, upping the chance for the ’6’ to 33%.
And there’s always a 33% chance that your Patriarch Warlord will be able to chose turn 1 charge with his Purestrains, by rerollable warlord trait.

[BattleMetalChris]

Sept 30, 2016 11:33:25 GMT cheesytom1 said:

Sept 30, 2016 11:24:19 GMT No One said:

Personally, I'd go close range - either cheap with shotguns+flamers, or with a bit more punch and auto/las+seismic cannons (probably with grenades as well). Long range...maybe some auto-cannons/heavy stubbers. It depends on exactly what you're doing with them, but in cult detachment (and if you're running neophytes, why not?), you're going to be using cult ambush and return to the shadows a lot I'd say. So then you've got those short range deployment options - taking weapons to properly make use of that seems the way to go for me. If you're just wanting some cheap backfield objective holders, then auto-cannons and maybe heavy stubbers.

Yeah, I was thinking something along those lines.

Especially liking shotguns with flamers, since shotguns are free and flamers are 5pts each.

You're needing to get pretty close to use them though, which may limit your Return To The Shadows.

[No One]

N.I.B. said:

Buffs from the Sacred Cult Banner are not unlikely (+1S on the charge)

Patty gives furious charge to purestrains while he's in the unit (unless that's not what the banner does?). If the entire brood gets the charge on the knight - it's almost certainly dead (~5.9 hp just from the purestrains). But the odds of the entire unit getting there, and getting the charge as well? Not exactly great. And if you're charging through cover (and didn't get flesh hooks/WL trait for ignores terrain), you're going to lose a lot of the unit to stomps as well. It's also pretty damn expensive, at 330 min (likely ~350 for extra ML).

[N.I.B.]

Ah, didn't see the Furious Charge rule, because it's on the Genestealers and not the Patriarch. So, Purestrains with Patriarch is a good answer to an IK (or to almost anything in the game, to be honest). The problem is in the delivery, as usual with Genestealers. Though it might not be as troublesome as you might think. You'll have a 50% chance of the '6' for the First Curse, and if they don't get it, chances are some other unit will, so you can tar pit the IK turn 1 for a turn 2 assault.

[No One]

N.I.B. said:

You'll have a 50% chance of the '6' for the First Curse

Wait, what? Have I missed something huge? (Because that would make it very viable I think, especially in the cult det for stealth+shrouded T1).

[BattleMetalChris]

Sept 30, 2016 12:55:16 GMT No One said:

N.I.B. said:

You'll have a 50% chance of the '6' for the First Curse

Wait, what? Have I missed something huge? (Because that would make it very viable I think, especially in the cult det for stealth+shrouded T1).

You get up to three two rerolls, depending on who you take as HQ.

[nalathani]

Sept 30, 2016 11:24:19 GMT No One said:

Personally, I'd go close range - either cheap with shotguns+flamers, or with a bit more punch and auto/las+seismic cannons (probably with grenades as well). Long range...maybe some auto-cannons/heavy stubbers. It depends on exactly what you're doing with them, but in cult detachment (and if you're running neophytes, why not?), you're going to be using cult ambush and return to the shadows a lot I'd say. So then you've got those short range deployment options - taking weapons to properly make use of that seems the way to go for me. If you're just wanting some cheap backfield objective holders, then auto-cannons and maybe heavy stubbers.

You could also have them sit in terrain and shoot those long range weapons until something is 1 turn from assaulting them, and zoop, jump into ongoing reserves. Use it as an escape, not as an every-other turn repositioning tool.

That broodsurge deliverance formation that's full of Neophytes + Goliaths might be fun if you equip them all with flamers and shotguns. With a 12 inch move + flat out, then 12 inch move and disembark you should be in flamer range of just about anything that's not hugging the deployment zone, and then you assault. I also really like the image of these religious fanatics throwing themselves out of a vehicle that's doing 50mph =D

[N.I.B.]

Sept 30, 2016 12:55:16 GMT No One said:

N.I.B. said:

You'll have a 50% chance of the '6' for the First Curse

Wait, what? Have I missed something huge? (Because that would make it very viable I think, especially in the cult det for stealth+shrouded T1).

Warlord trait #6 - 1/6 chance.
Reroll Warlord trait if not #6 - 1/6 chance.
Roll a natural #6 on the Ambush table - 1/6 chance.

= 3/6 chance, or 50%.

[guidebot]

Sept 30, 2016 13:51:38 GMT N.I.B. said:

Sept 30, 2016 12:55:16 GMT No One said:

Wait, what? Have I missed something huge? (Because that would make it very viable I think, especially in the cult det for stealth+shrouded T1).

Warlord trait #6 - 1/6 chance.
Reroll Warlord trait if not #6 - 1/6 chance.
Roll a natural #6 on the Ambush table - 1/6 chance.

= 3/6 chance, or 50%.

I'm sure you know, but that's not actually how compound probability works. It's 42.13% chance to roll at least one 6 on three D6 rolls.

EDIT: Spelling.

[BattleMetalChris]

Sept 30, 2016 13:51:38 GMT N.I.B. said:

Sept 30, 2016 12:55:16 GMT No One said:

Wait, what? Have I missed something huge? (Because that would make it very viable I think, especially in the cult det for stealth+shrouded T1).

Warlord trait #6 - 1/6 chance.
Reroll Warlord trait if not #6 - 1/6 chance.
Roll a natural #6 on the Ambush table - 1/6 chance.

= 3/6 chance, or 50%.

That's..... not how probability works.

The chance of getting a 6 from the first two is 11/36; chance of rolling a 6 on the first roll (1/6)  +  chance of rolling 1-5 on the first then a 6 on the second ( 5/6 * 1/6 )


EDIT: haha, and guidebot ninja'd me with the 3D6 result

[No One]

nalathani said:

You could also have them sit in terrain and shoot those long range weapons until something is 1 turn from assaulting them, and zoop, jump into ongoing reserves. Use it as an escape, not as an every-other turn repositioning tool.

By doing that, you're relegating them to a shoot-out against most armies. A single BS 3 heavy weapon is not going to win a shoot out against basically anything. Being able to jump back into ongoing to avoid an assault doesn't change that - most of the stuff that wants to assault you would be '1 turn from assaulting' pretty damn quickly, and at a fair distance. And most of those sorts of assault units, I'd be perfectly happy feeding a squad of neophytes a turn. The units that aren't dedicated cc units...well, why're you running from them? You're giving up at least 1 turn of shooting, which's in your optimum range (i.e. you can actually use the rest of your guns, which aren't great, but they're something).

Honestly, I doubt it'd be an 'every other turn' anyway, because they're likely to die/be in a spot where they've still got targets (or possibly be on top of an objective) - just got to pick your target so they die doing some damage. Either that, or they're near death and you'd want to RttS to get back D6.

That broodsurge deliverance formation that's full of Neophytes + Goliaths might be fun if you equip them all with flamers and shotguns. With a 12 inch move + flat out, then 12 inch move and disembark you should be in flamer range of just about anything that's not hugging the deployment zone, and then you assault. I also really like the image of these religious fanatics throwing themselves out of a vehicle that's doing 50mph =D

Or you could not bother with the transports and just deploy them in their face without getting shot first - sure, you might lose out on charges. But that's probably more useful than relying on fragile transports surviving 1 or 2 turns of shooting. If you're wanting to take goliaths though, probably not a bad way to do so (with a bunch as DT for acolytes, probably some rock grinders in the formation...).

N.I.B. said:

Warlord trait #6 - 1/6 chance.
Reroll Warlord trait if not #6 - 1/6 chance.
Roll a natural #6 on the Ambush table - 1/6 chance.

= 3/6 chance, or 50%.

Ah, you're looking at WL trait as well - was thinking it was something to do with the formation (thinking about running it just as a formation with my nids, thus wouldn't have the WL trait re-roll, and mightn't take patty as my WL at all).