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Post by WestRider on Aug 29, 2015 13:00:32 GMT
Having cheap beasts as troops and about a million ways to make them fearless would seriously raep all kind of shooting armies in the game. That's too much. No 12" movement unit should be in troops slots. Eldar got it in jetbikes and we all know how that went. What is stupid is that we have way too many troops though. Mehreens have tacticals and scouts. Tau have fire warriors and kroots. Necrons have warriors only i think? We have hormas, termas, genestealers, warriors, swarms... Way too many troops and none of them are remotely useful maybe except podded devils. If you include Dedicated Transports, basically every Army except us and AdMech have 12" move Troops. Even without that, most varieties of Marines can take Bikes as Troops, and with Forge World, RavenGuard can take Assault Marines and Orks can take Bikes, while Death Korps can take Cavalry. That said, they wouldn't have to go all the way to Beasts. Something like the Howling Banshees' rule that also gave them the extra 3" on Charges would do. But they need something. As it stands, they just don't live to make Combat. And even tho they're not Troops, you don't see things like Seekers wrecking Shooting Armies all over the place. CD can fill their Troops easily enough that it's not too much of a limitation that they're FW. I don't even really see Khorne Dog spam much anymore, and those are crazy good. I definitely agree with you that we've got too much stuff in Troops, tho. If I had my way, Warriors and Stealers would go back to Elites, with special Detachments and/or Formations to let Stealer-centric Lists still be a thing.
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Post by reitifoh on Aug 29, 2015 17:26:49 GMT
As I have posted in a previous thread, for me there is just '1' rule needed to make our army feel more.....'tyranid' and that is look out sir for ALL units within Synapse range.
example: you have a group of termagants (10) in front of swarmlord, half the number of gaunts (5) and you get that many look out sir (to emphasis the fact half of them are climbing on others backs) for the swarmlord. this would be a physical representation of the whole army being directed by 'one mind'. of course when its written up it can include 'must be within 6" of intended target' etc. I personally feel that this would bring back swarm armies as the gribbles would finally be used as they are meant to (cannon fodder) and of course to make it viable swarm armies would need ALOT of troops, thus bringing but the swarm.
although I am amongst those who hope for a points decrease for stealers, would love to use them again.
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Post by arapaima on Aug 30, 2015 1:30:07 GMT
I wish they add more punch to our melee options. I read the codex and it felt they try To make us not good in close combat when our shooting options were already meh. Sure there's the devs and e grub looks more like an editorial oversight then an actual inclusion.
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Post by shortymcnostrill on Aug 30, 2015 22:09:14 GMT
Heheh, looking at the rest of our options, I do wonder if the writer(s) meant for codex: devourer to happen or if they really missed that
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Post by tomb on Aug 31, 2015 7:57:30 GMT
Great Idea Reitifoh, look out sir for synapse would work across the board, flyrants with Gargs, Warriors with masses of gaunts, shrikes with hormaguants. If GW are looking for cinematic Nids this would be a start.
As a different idea for synapse, what if synapse worked like orders for guard. If in synapse the big bugs can control the little ones with positive outcomes. One 'order' may be a look out sir type of meat Sheild, another could be an increased move etc.
Sorry for the wish listing ...
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Post by mattblowers on Aug 31, 2015 11:24:11 GMT
I definitely agree with you that we've got too much stuff in Troops, tho. If I had my way, Warriors and Stealers would go back to Elites, with special Detachments and/or Formations to let Stealer-centric Lists still be a thing. Elites is pretty crowded as is, even more so if put warriors and stealers there. When I do run a stealer list, I run at least 70 and 3 slots aint gonna cut it especially when you consider that we would lose our spots for malanthropes/venomthrope.
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Post by N.I.B. on Aug 31, 2015 12:04:32 GMT
Too much stuff in troops, wooot? 12 slots in your average double-CAD list. Not that you want to use anything but mucolids or rippers, but still a lot of room.
Still, not much to fuss about until Warriors and Genestealers become fieldable.
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Post by Kwodd on Aug 31, 2015 14:34:12 GMT
Just give me my damn plastic GC.
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Post by mattblowers on Aug 31, 2015 14:49:39 GMT
Just give me my damn plastic GC. +1. IF it's a new one or a heirophant. I already own the heirodules and harridan, don't want them to be obsoleted after dropping a small fortune on them.
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Post by WestRider on Aug 31, 2015 14:58:09 GMT
I definitely agree with you that we've got too much stuff in Troops, tho. If I had my way, Warriors and Stealers would go back to Elites, with special Detachments and/or Formations to let Stealer-centric Lists still be a thing. Elites is pretty crowded as is, even more so if put warriors and stealers there. When I do run a stealer list, I run at least 70 and 3 slots aint gonna cut it especially when you consider that we would lose our spots for malanthropes/venomthrope. Looking through just Dexes, not supplements. Looking at the Armies that have been around since 3rd or longer, only Tau and Dark Eldar have fewer Elites options than we do, and most of the SM Dexes have almost twice as many. Other than CSM, no other Army has more than 3 Troops options, while we have 5. The real difference is that most of those other Armies have Formations or Detachments that let them ease the crowding on their Elites. I think double CAD will open that up a lot for us, too.
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Post by Kwodd on Aug 31, 2015 15:15:58 GMT
Just give me my damn plastic GC. +1. IF it's a new one or a heirophant. I already own the heirodules and harridan, don't want them to be obsoleted after dropping a small fortune on them. It'll be the dominatrix, or some other GC that spawns MCs. That way people are buying 2500 points in models for 1850 games.
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Post by biomassbob on Aug 31, 2015 15:23:01 GMT
I definitely agree with you that we've got too much stuff in Troops, tho. If I had my way, Warriors and Stealers would go back to Elites, with special Detachments and/or Formations to let Stealer-centric Lists still be a thing. Elites is pretty crowded as is, even more so if put warriors and stealers there. When I do run a stealer list, I run at least 70 and 3 slots aint gonna cut it especially when you consider that we would lose our spots for malanthropes/venomthrope. Agree, elites has enough stuff - leave those units in troops where you have lots of slots. Ref plastic GC. I can understand that. I would prefer that if we are getting a GC in the next dex is is just a change to the trygon. If it is another creature then absolutely a plastic kit. I only hope that our necessary options to deal with super-heavies, etc, are in the next dex (and if the malanthrope is still just as good that it is moved to the dex). I want all the rules and units to play competitively in my dex. Other supplements/FW are extra stuff that can be fine but should not be needed or practically so to fight competitively - they should just be other options. I also really hope that GW doesn't do the 6th ed mess - release the dex and shortly afterword release supplements that contain units or formations or whatever that are needed to play effectively.
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Post by mattblowers on Aug 31, 2015 15:35:50 GMT
Elites is pretty crowded as is, even more so if put warriors and stealers there. When I do run a stealer list, I run at least 70 and 3 slots aint gonna cut it especially when you consider that we would lose our spots for malanthropes/venomthrope. Looking through just Dexes, not supplements. Looking at the Armies that have been around since 3rd or longer, only Tau and Dark Eldar have fewer Elites options than we do, and most of the SM Dexes have almost twice as many. Other than CSM, no other Army has more than 3 Troops options, while we have 5. The real difference is that most of those other Armies have Formations or Detachments that let them ease the crowding on their Elites. I think double CAD will open that up a lot for us, too. Except that we have the fewest choices to change the choices we do have. We can't take drop pods that auto drop turn 1. We can't take transports. We can't add ICs (Prime isn't exactly a good choice or much variety) that change how the troops play. We can't put them on motorcycles or jetbikes. Then there's Eldar: rangers guardians storm guardians dire avengers wind riders That's five too by my count. It's that many of our choices don't work, not that we have too many choices.
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Post by WestRider on Aug 31, 2015 18:00:29 GMT
I forgot about Eldar (it's one of the few Dexes I don't own), but I was including FOC swaps, which is why CSM have more than we do.
Basically, at this point, we just have a ton of Units, and our FOC is going to be clogged somewhere. I'd rather see Warriors and Stealers buffed enough to be worthy of Elites status than cheapened enough to be decent Troops.
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Post by vejby on Sept 1, 2015 7:47:29 GMT
My biggest fear is that they would streamline the codex even more with the normal races. The list of bio-artifacts and the armoury section with fixed costs of the current codex just smells of someone who basically wants tyranids to be a different skin over an MC-heavy IG-dex.
I agree that synapse needs to change from a penalty to a potential bonus. The penalty for being out of synapse is already present by the very low ld of many units and fearless is a nice way to negate that weakness. There is no need for convoluted random three-tier tables that can be crippling on the units they penalise. Conversely, synapse should not be a super-buffer that will make a unit nigh-invincible if coupled with the right upgrades. A single instinctive behaviour that limits the usefulness of a unit in a single phase, be that movement or shooting, as defined by that unit's "archetype" would be fine and keep fearless as the synapse bonus.
I also think that the warrior-type is fine as it is. One could discuss whether W2 T5 is a better standard for the warrior, but the main problem is the Price. Warriors and shrikes could be damn fine CC-units if the cc-biomorphs and weapons were less expensive. 30pts for a basic warrior is fine, but 50-60pts for an AP-3 platform with no invul is not, which brings me to the next point:
Tyranid psychic powers are way too random to be the buffer-de-buffer mechanism that would allow our other units to Work better. Warriors with Feel no Pain? Yes sir, I'll take it, but not as random as it is today. TMC's hitting on 3's in CC due to psychic de-buff? Yes sir, but not as random as it is today. I understand that random is the new Black in GW design today, but when they hand out re-rolls to everybody and their mother, they remove a lot of that randomness. So, tyranids need some psychers with either fixed powers like the zoans, but a different selection, or some mechanism to ensure that a majority of psychers get the powers that the players wants, be that through re-rerolls or different three-tier tables instead a single 6-tier table as it is today. Surprisingly enough, I find the codex-powers to be good enough, nothing fantastic, but all have their uses in many contexts.
Now, Shadow in the Warp needs to change and follow the synapse-range. The best scenario would be if Shadows made it harder to harness charges or made it more likely for enemy psykers to peril or made it easier to cast tyranid powers or made it harder for enemy psykers to deny them or simply limit the number of charges an enemy psyker could harness. Every single effect would be better than the current itteration in my opinion, though I would probably not want a combination of more of them. Some of the more specialised tyranid psykers, of which there are now a couple, could bring extra effects to their own shadow for added synergy.
Speaking of which, bring back some synergy to the book! The psychic powers synergise quite well with weaker units, but the randomness of powers is too punishing to rely on. The harpy's I-lowering charge rule synergises well with assault units with no grenades, but alas the restriction on assaulting after changing flight mode makes it nigh-useless. Several CC-biomorphs have good rules that, if combined, could provide for some real CC-monsters, but no, we have to choose between rending or +3 I. Imagine a tyrant with both crushing claws (if only) and the reaper gaining the benefits of both strength increases.
Hopefully, they do not screw the NeXT codex up and move it further in the direction of imperial army with different skin, but at the same time I Wonder if that is not the only way to hope for improvements to the army.
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