Tyranid vs. Zerg

[jesses]

I'm actually going to vote Zerg on this with the caveat that we are assuming equal sized forces (because 40k is played on a purposefully different scale than StarCraft and pitting trillions of Tyranids against a few million Zerg is just ludicrous).

Second caveat: I haven't played Heart of the Swarm's campaign yet, just the multiplayer, so there may be things I've missed here.

Base assumptions:

Psykers: We have no reason to assume that the Shadow in the Warp will have any effect on the Overmind (or vice versa), both are potent psychics with similar effects. Tyranids interfere with 40k Psykers because it interferes with their ability to access the Warp. While ostensibly the Tyranids don't use the Warp either it must be at least tangentially related because Necron Null Field Matrices, designed to blot out the Warp in an area, explicitly blot out the Hive Mind as well (Codex: Necrons, 5th ed.)

Therefore I am working from the assumption that either they both interfere with each other equally, or neither interferes with each other. Note this is about passive abilities, clearly Warp Blast will work just fine to nuke things.

Space Travel: While Zerg explicitly move between systems significantly faster than Tyranids (Tyranids takes years to decades to get between systems in the fluff, Zerg do it in days to weeks or faster since they can generate wormhole like events (StarCraft I, cutscenes). However, since we have no speed estimates for either fleets in-system speed, I am going to assume they are equally matched here. Neither gets a speed advantage in orbit or moving between planets.

Armour: Again, since we have no direct ways to compare since the formats are so different I'm going to assume that Zerg and Tyranid chitin is roughly comparable. That the armoured shell on a Hierophant and an Ultralisk are about the same etc.


NOW! LET'S GET READY TO RUUUUUMBLE!!! (or at least compare notes...)

So why do I think the Zerg would win?

Offense: Put simply, the Zerg hit harder. While smaller Tyranid organisms are completely unable to harm even weak vehicles without upgrades or help (even in the fluff Hormagaunts are never tearing open Rhinos), the Zergling is an extremely effective vehicle hunter. Massed Zerglings will rapidly tear their way through Siege Tanks and Dragoons. That means that while Hormagaunts and Termagants are struggling to wear down Ultralisks the same is probably not the case for Zerglings and any of the Tyranid Bio-Titans.

Attack Vectors: While Games Workshop likes to constantly describe the Tyranids as super-adaptive monsters they are, in fact, actually really bad at it. The Tyranids are almost never actually described as mutating or adapting, they just throw everything they can at the enemy until something works. While Shield of Baal: Leviathin was better in this regard than previous Tyranid fluff, it still doesn't show them being very good at it. The Zerg, on the other hand, are constantly shown adapting to new circumstances (mutating existing Broods into new creatures is a defining characteristic of the game).

In addition the Zerg simply attack on more levels. While both infest worlds, mutating the flora to suit them, the Zerg can infest living creatures and turn those to their will, something that the Tyranids cannot do (and no, Genestealers don't count as they are fluffed in their current incarnations as, at best, absorbing their preys DNA to mutate themselves until they can interbreed [Shield of Baal: Deathstorm]). The Zerg consistently subvert and infect entire planets, without even needing to kill the inhabitants.

Air Superiority: The Tyranid air force is fairly lackluster. Flyrants with 2xDevs are pretty good (although you never see them in the fluff), but Crones need to get up close and personal, and Spore Mines, while decent defensively, are neither fast nor agile. When compared to the fast, mobile, and excellently ranged Zerg units the only decent Tyranid fliers that they ever show in massed numbers (Harpies and Gargoyles) will simply get out-gunned and overwhelmed. Mutalisks, Guardians, Corruptors and Devourers will trash them from a distance, and Scourge are just better in every way than Spore Mines (both kinds) and perform the same role. Even Harridans, the most powerful Tyranid flyer, are at best on par with the Zerg flyers (who constantly go wing-to-wing with aircraft carriers and battleships).

Actually Just Better In Every Way: I was going to detail out every other way the Zerg are better (including better use of burrowing, the fact that while I don't think the Zerg could necessarily infest the Tyranid the Zerg viruses constantly attacking them would certainly slow them down, etc) but it really comes down to one thing:

StarCraft fights 21st Century Wars.

40k fights 18th Century Wars.

Now I love 40k, its by far my favourite tabletop game (and I enjoy tabletop games way more than video games), but GW conceives of, and writes, wars analogous to the Napoleonic Wars (or the Civil War, for you Americans) at worst, and the two World Wars at best. Massed guns lines, stationary forces, massive fortifications. These are things that war has moved well past. StarCraft conceives of rapid 21st Century Wars: small aggressive forces that move damn fast and hit the enemy in its weak points. Even the Zerg, the ostensibly horde army (ZERG RUSH!) employ these tactics, and are frankly better at them. Compare how the Zerg assassinated Fenix in a surgical strike with Hydralisks in StarCraft to how Genestealers are frequently portrayed. Yes, I know Lictors are a thing but they aren't even really fluffed at being that good at their job. This mostly comes down to world building. GW wants to write epic stories about Idealized Heroes facing down Overwhelming Odds, and competent assassins (for the bad guys at least) just don't fit that narrative.

At the end of the day the Zerg are going to hit the Tyranids faster, from more angles, and with a greater variety of weapons than the Tyranids will be able to respond to. Imagine the tides of Zerglings and Roaches crashing into Hormagaunts and Termagants, except the Zerg brought Banelings to the party to detonate massive holes in the Tyranid lines. While nearly every Tyranid unit has a Zerg counterpart (Toxicrene/Venomthrope - Defiler/Infestor; Biovore/Exocrene - Guardian/Brood Lord etc) the same cannot be said for the Tyranids. They have no real counter to the Zerg Air Force (especially once their own is decimated) and a limited ability to fight the underground war against Lurkers, Nydus Worms and etc. Mawlocs are the only thing that can attack from underground, and even if we grant some more capability to Trygon's and Raveners the vast majority of Zerg units can effectively burrow.

The only real advantage the Tyranids have is their brute force attack Psykers and I just don't see those being able to turn the tide against the Zerg's ubiquitous use of parasites and viruses.

In the end the Zerg win, although it will be a HECK of a fight.

[swarm492]

I see a long-term tyranid victory brought on by how the races function and one simply being more powerful than the other. A: Tyranids, a intergalactic race of network-minded, hyper-evolving nasty things. B: Zerg, a Galactic race of network-minded, hyper-evolving nasty things controlled overall by a single physical being I.E Kerrigan. The tyranids win imo because of limits, or simply their lack there of. You could make Kerrigan a mastery level 40, 100, 200 for all I care, she has limits, one of her major goals in starcraft 2 is to simply get stronger for the fight to come, pushing her boundaries, pushing her limits. The Hivemind has no limits, it simply is. Want to kill the Hivemind? kill the tyranid race, lot harder than killing some grubby looking overminds/ or kerrigan. The zerg are also numbered, that number may be in the billions'n trillions, but they are finite because they are galactic bound. Tyranids and infinite simply by the fluff they operate by. How many tyranids are there?..idk. Well how many galaxies are they in? ..idk. Well (please do not swear). I see it as everything the zerg do, nids do, or can do better.

Here is a sad possibility. Kerrigan way back when was a slave to the overmind because it had stronger mind bullets than her, and that is why she can control brood-mothers, minus Zigara because she allows Zigara to have her own free will. Zerg are controlled by a super strong physic being named Kerrigan, Tyranids are controlled by a infinitely spanning/powerful Hivemind which is the Tyranid consciousness. I think you all see where I'm going even if they were engineered, still not completely un-canon, I'm looking at you Zoats.

[j0rdan]

Jan 31, 2015 5:43:59 GMT jesses said:

I'm actually going to vote Zerg on this with the caveat that we are assuming equal sized forces (because 40k is played on a purposefully different scale than StarCraft and pitting trillions of Tyranids against a few million Zerg is just ludicrous).

That's a reasonable caveat to make, but not a fair one. The fact that the Nids are without number is something that is taken into consideration by the hive mind in all aspects, from army-sizes to tactics to genetic makeup even. Taking that away from them is handicapping them, not making it more fair (this fight was never going to be fair though, so I'll move on, lol).

Armour: Again, since we have no direct ways to compare since the formats are so different I'm going to assume that Zerg and Tyranid chitin is roughly comparable. That the armoured shell on a Hierophant and an Ultralisk are about the same etc.

How big is an Ultralisk? In game, just judging by their size in relation to a marine, I'd say the Ultra is closer to a carnifex than it is to a Hierophant. Do the Zerg even have the equivalent of super-heavies?

Offense: Put simply, the Zerg hit harder. While smaller Tyranid organisms are completely unable to harm even weak vehicles without upgrades or help (even in the fluff Hormagaunts are never tearing open Rhinos), the Zergling is an extremely effective vehicle hunter. Massed Zerglings will rapidly tear their way through Siege Tanks and Dragoons. That means that while Hormagaunts and Termagants are struggling to wear down Ultralisks the same is probably not the case for Zerglings and any of the Tyranid Bio-Titans.


This is actually not true. While there is no mechanic on tabletop to represent it, there is an example in the fluff where massed gaunts actually destroy a baneblade by sheer clogging mass. Massed gaunts can literally kill anything on the ground, by that logic. And again, Ultras seem more comparable to fexes than supers.

Attack Vectors: While Games Workshop likes to constantly describe the Tyranids as super-adaptive monsters they are, in fact, actually really bad at it. The Tyranids are almost never actually described as mutating or adapting, they just throw everything they can at the enemy until something works. While Shield of Baal: Leviathin was better in this regard than previous Tyranid fluff, it still doesn't show them being very good at it. The Zerg, on the other hand, are constantly shown adapting to new circumstances (mutating existing Broods into new creatures is a defining characteristic of the game).

I'm not sure where you're getting that, but Nids have, multiple times, been shown to evolve after individual battles, both genetically ant tactically. I will grant that zerg are better at evolving (once) over the course of a single battle, but they are limited by the fact that the starting organism is the same every time.

In addition the Zerg simply attack on more levels. While both infest worlds, mutating the flora to suit them, the Zerg can infest living creatures and turn those to their will, something that the Tyranids cannot do (and no, Genestealers don't count as they are fluffed in their current incarnations as, at best, absorbing their preys DNA to mutate themselves until they can interbreed [Shield of Baal: Deathstorm]). The Zerg consistently subvert and infect entire planets, without even needing to kill the inhabitants.

Man, nothing I read in Deathstorm seemed to retcon decades of fluff that detail how Stealer Cults have taken control of entire worlds countless times across the 40k universe. Anyways, aren't these guys supposed to be fighting each other? Why are we stacking up how well they corrupt other races? I think it's fair to assume that if zerg can corrupt nids, then there's no reason to assume stealers can't do the same to zerg. I don't think, in either case, that it would be worth the effort though. Both races view individuals as ammunition

Air Superiority: The Tyranid air force is fairly lackluster. Flyrants with 2xDevs are pretty good (although you never see them in the fluff), but Crones need to get up close and personal, and Spore Mines, while decent defensively, are neither fast nor agile. When compared to the fast, mobile, and excellently ranged Zerg units the only decent Tyranid fliers that they ever show in massed numbers (Harpies and Gargoyles) will simply get out-gunned and overwhelmed. Mutalisks, Guardians, Corruptors and Devourers will trash them from a distance, and Scourge are just better in every way than Spore Mines (both kinds) and perform the same role. Even Harridans, the most powerful Tyranid flyer, are at best on par with the Zerg flyers (who constantly go wing-to-wing with aircraft carriers and battleships).

This really comes down to my first point again, numbers. Nids are literally described as blotting out the sun when they invade in the air. Crones explicitly do NOT need to be up close and personal, they have living anti-air missiles! It just so happens that they are ALSO good when up close and personal. You can't write off the flyrant just because you don't see them in the fluff. The Zerg (to my knowledge) simply do not have the equivalent to an air commander. The importance there can't be overlooked... And what evidence makes you think Nid air units aren't fast or agile? While there isn't a ton of fluff regarding airborne engagements with them, what little there is describes their preternatural agility in the sky.


Actually Just Better In Every Way: I was going to detail out every other way the Zerg are better (including better use of burrowing, the fact that while I don't think the Zerg could necessarily infest the Tyranid the Zerg viruses constantly attacking them would certainly slow them down, etc) but it really comes down to one thing:

StarCraft fights 21st Century Wars.

40k fights 18th Century Wars.

Now I love 40k, its by far my favourite tabletop game (and I enjoy tabletop games way more than video games), but GW conceives of, and writes, wars analogous to the Napoleonic Wars (or the Civil War, for you Americans) at worst, and the two World Wars at best. Massed guns lines, stationary forces, massive fortifications. These are things that war has moved well past. StarCraft conceives of rapid 21st Century Wars: small aggressive forces that move damn fast and hit the enemy in its weak points. Even the Zerg, the ostensibly horde army (ZERG RUSH!) employ these tactics, and are frankly better at them. Compare how the Zerg assassinated Fenix in a surgical strike with Hydralisks in StarCraft to how Genestealers are frequently portrayed. Yes, I know Lictors are a thing but they aren't even really fluffed at being that good at their job. This mostly comes down to world building. GW wants to write epic stories about Idealized Heroes facing down Overwhelming Odds, and competent assassins (for the bad guys at least) just don't fit that narrative.

This is simply not true. At least as a rule. I think you're confusing scale with tactics. Some of the battles in 40k do play out that way (especially on tabletop!). In the fluff, the heros of the story always have to come up with some solution to the nid problem because normal tactics won't work. I AM comparing the Fenix thing to Genestealers because while that was ONE event orchestrated by the commander of the zerg, genestealers do the same thing on the daily, and have been for thousands of years. The difference here is actually that zerg can't commit enough forces to have the old fashioned battles if it wanted to. Nids can and do, if that's what the situation calls for.

At the end of the day the Zerg are going to hit the Tyranids faster, from more angles, and with a greater variety of weapons than the Tyranids will be able to respond to. Imagine the tides of Zerglings and Roaches crashing into Hormagaunts and Termagants, except the Zerg brought Banelings to the party to detonate massive holes in the Tyranid lines. While nearly every Tyranid unit has a Zerg counterpart (Toxicrene/Venomthrope - Defiler/Infestor; Biovore/Exocrene - Guardian/Brood Lord etc) the same cannot be said for the Tyranids. They have no real counter to the Zerg Air Force (especially once their own is decimated) and a limited ability to fight the underground war against Lurkers, Nydus Worms and etc. Mawlocs are the only thing that can attack from underground, and even if we grant some more capability to Trygon's and Raveners the vast majority of Zerg units can effectively burrow.

At the end of the day, all this would only be possible if you arbitrarily limit the nids in numbers. And what if biovores blow up those banelings while they were in route? And who says that Trygons, Raveners, Mawlocs, and more couldn't fight back? Actually, I see advantage to nids here. Don't the Zerg only hide when they are burrowed? Nids have actually been shown to move and fight while underground. Circumstance dictates advantage in one battle, which is why to try to get a reasonable guess for the OP, you'd have to look at the war.

The only real advantage the Tyranids have is their brute force attack Psykers and I just don't see those being able to turn the tide against the Zerg's ubiquitous use of parasites and viruses.

Ironically, I disagree with this too. IMO, those psyker attacks would mostly just amount to another gun. And there's no reason to think the nids would even be vulnerable to parasites and viruses introduced by beings from a galaxy other than their own, and even if they were, our own codex shows them to adapt to resist MAGICAL DEMON VIRUSES in the space of one prolonged battle.

In the end the Zerg win, although it will be a HECK of a fight.

I will grant you that if you limited nid numbers, zerg COULD win a fight. Even that wouldn't be guaranteed, as the possible circumstances and force compositions are nearly limitless. There's not a snowball's chance in hell that Zerg would win the war though.

[lordsia]

Jan 31, 2015 5:43:59 GMT jesses said:

Base assumptions:

These, I'll give you. More or less.

Jan 31, 2015 5:43:59 GMT jesses said:

Offense: Put simply, the Zerg hit harder. While smaller Tyranid organisms are completely unable to harm even weak vehicles without upgrades or help (even in the fluff Hormagaunts are never tearing open Rhinos), the Zergling is an extremely effective vehicle hunter. Massed Zerglings will rapidly tear their way through Siege Tanks and Dragoons. That means that while Hormagaunts and Termagants are struggling to wear down Ultralisks the same is probably not the case for Zerglings and any of the Tyranid Bio-Titans.

Bull. (Fecal Matter). Yes, the Gaunt genus are definitely suboptimal for dealing with vehicles, but outside of tabletop restrictions they can mission-kill vehicles, if nothing else, simply by literally burying them in numbers. This is because they are optimised as expendable light infantry. You shouldn't compare Termagants to Zerglings; they are Locusts, and Tervigons are Swarm Hosts that can spawn on the move and even contribute to the fight as well.

Also, Hormagaunts versus Ultralisks?

Two words; Toxin. Sacs.

Jan 31, 2015 5:43:59 GMT jesses said:

Attack Vectors: While Games Workshop likes to constantly describe the Tyranids as super-adaptive monsters they are, in fact, actually really bad at it. The Tyranids are almost never actually described as mutating or adapting, they just throw everything they can at the enemy until something works. While Shield of Baal: Leviathin was better in this regard than previous Tyranid fluff, it still doesn't show them being very good at it. The Zerg, on the other hand, are constantly shown adapting to new circumstances (mutating existing Broods into new creatures is a defining characteristic of the game).

In addition the Zerg simply attack on more levels. While both infest worlds, mutating the flora to suit them, the Zerg can infest living creatures and turn those to their will, something that the Tyranids cannot do (and no, Genestealers don't count as they are fluffed in their current incarnations as, at best, absorbing their preys DNA to mutate themselves until they can interbreed [Shield of Baal: Deathstorm]). The Zerg consistently subvert and infect entire planets, without even needing to kill the inhabitants.

The first is a blatant lie; Tyranids are described as adapting both genetically, tactically and strategically. Just one example is how Hive Fleet Gorgon continuously countered every Tau weapon and tactic by adapting either to resist or circumvent them; carapaces tailored against pulse weapons fire, spore clouds deployed to counter high-powered but slow-firing rail weapons, Lictors guiding burrowing creatures right to their artillery support... The list goes on.

How is this not adaptive?

And Genestealers have successfully subverted whole planets; not just infected or killed everyone, but actually convinced people to worship them, to rise up in arms against the Imperium and to cheerfully march into the digestion pools in order to join their loving god. I can't recall the Zerg brainwashing whole planets to willingly submit to infestation?

Jan 31, 2015 5:43:59 GMT jesses said:

Air Superiority: The Tyranid air force is fairly lackluster. Flyrants with 2xDevs are pretty good (although you never see them in the fluff), but Crones need to get up close and personal, and Spore Mines, while decent defensively, are neither fast nor agile. When compared to the fast, mobile, and excellently ranged Zerg units the only decent Tyranid fliers that they ever show in massed numbers (Harpies and Gargoyles) will simply get out-gunned and overwhelmed. Mutalisks, Guardians, Corruptors and Devourers will trash them from a distance, and Scourge are just better in every way than Spore Mines (both kinds) and perform the same role. Even Harridans, the most powerful Tyranid flyer, are at best on par with the Zerg flyers (who constantly go wing-to-wing with aircraft carriers and battleships).

Okay, first of all, game mechanics are game mechanics; at best, they provide an outline for abilities, not a definitive descriptor. Second, Tyranid flyers are in every way comparable to Zerg flyers. Corruptors aren't any better than Hive Crones, and I wouldn't bet on Devourers either with Tentaclids under the Crones' wings. Guardians and Brood Lords are comparable to Harpies - heavy air support - except Harpies can actually stand up for themselves in aerial duels and pack a bit of flexibility. Mutalisks don't really have a straight-up equivalent, true, but neither does the Zerg have an equivalent for Harridans, let alone Flyrants, Shrikes and Gargoyles.

I have to admit that Scourges do win against Mucolids, in terms of mobility if not power and flexibility.

And no, Zerg flyers going up against SC-verse space craft says more about SC-verse space craft than it does Zerg abilities.

Jan 31, 2015 5:43:59 GMT jesses said:

Actually Just Better In Every Way: I was going to detail out every other way the Zerg are better (including better use of burrowing, the fact that while I don't think the Zerg could necessarily infest the Tyranid the Zerg viruses constantly attacking them would certainly slow them down, etc) but it really comes down to one thing:

StarCraft fights 21st Century Wars.

40k fights 18th Century Wars.

To expand on the example you don't want to expand upon; Tyranids have used burrowing units to set ambushes, perform hit-and-run attacks, to sneak behind defense lines, to break into fortresses, to take out artillery and support formations - how do the Zerg make better use of burrowing? And if Zerg viruses can slow down Tyranids, I shudder to think what a Hypertoxic Node would do to a Zerg Hive.

But as for the 18th vs 21st century thing, in a word; No.

Tyranids make use of combined arms, use reconnaissance and infiltration, psychological warfare, area denial weapons, and both air and space support. This is in addition to effectively instant communication and perfect coordination.

What part of this is 18th century? The "living tide" approach? The one used simply to exhaust the defenders, since the Hive Mind is going to recycle the entire planet anyway?

Jan 31, 2015 5:43:59 GMT jesses said:

Now I love 40k, its by far my favourite tabletop game (and I enjoy tabletop games way more than video games), but GW conceives of, and writes, wars analogous to the Napoleonic Wars (or the Civil War, for you Americans) at worst, and the two World Wars at best. Massed guns lines, stationary forces, massive fortifications. These are things that war has moved well past. StarCraft conceives of rapid 21st Century Wars: small aggressive forces that move damn fast and hit the enemy in its weak points. Even the Zerg, the ostensibly horde army (ZERG RUSH!) employ these tactics, and are frankly better at them.

You know why the world has moved past massed gun lines, stationary defences and massive fortifications? Because rarely do modern armies face unrelenting hordes charging en masse (like Orks, Chaos Cultists or Tyranids do). Stationary defences are still built, it's just that they are only built where there is a need for them, when there is money and time to construct them, and they can actually be expected to hold up against whatever is thrown at them, at least long enough to warrant the investment. Massive fortifications is what you get when there is a strategic location you need to defend, and you have both the time, resources and technology to create a defensive installation that can't just be circumvented.

As for the Black Library's novels, I recommend Gaunt's Ghosts.

Jan 31, 2015 5:43:59 GMT jesses said:

Compare how the Zerg assassinated Fenix in a surgical strike with Hydralisks in StarCraft to how Genestealers are frequently portrayed. Yes, I know Lictors are a thing but they aren't even really fluffed at being that good at their job. This mostly comes down to world building. GW wants to write epic stories about Idealized Heroes facing down Overwhelming Odds, and competent assassins (for the bad guys at least) just don't fit that narrative.

This is news to me. I mean, we have the story of the Deathleaper, a single Lictor named so because it terrorised the whole planet of Caspalen. The crowning moment was a ten-day terror campaign directed at the cardinal of the planet's ecclesiarchy; the Lictor slaughtered all of his guards, showed itself, and disappeared. It then repeated this trick every day, until the good cardinal went insane with paranoia and fear, causing the global defense effort to collapse.

Sounds plenty competent to me.

Jan 31, 2015 5:43:59 GMT jesses said:

At the end of the day the Zerg are going to hit the Tyranids faster, from more angles, and with a greater variety of weapons than the Tyranids will be able to respond to. Imagine the tides of Zerglings and Roaches crashing into Hormagaunts and Termagants, except the Zerg brought Banelings to the party to detonate massive holes in the Tyranid lines. While nearly every Tyranid unit has a Zerg counterpart (Toxicrene/Venomthrope - Defiler/Infestor; Biovore/Exocrene - Guardian/Brood Lord etc) the same cannot be said for the Tyranids. They have no real counter to the Zerg Air Force (especially once their own is decimated) and a limited ability to fight the underground war against Lurkers, Nydus Worms and etc. Mawlocs are the only thing that can attack from underground, and even if we grant some more capability to Trygon's and Raveners the vast majority of Zerg units can effectively burrow.

See, for all your talk about Zerg being the more "modern" force, they are actually the ones lacking the iconic abilities of modern militaries. They don't have any real artillery; air support yes, Guardians and Brood Lords, but no real ground-based, indirect, area-effect bombardment. In fact, they are heavily limited in terms of ground-based ranged attacks in general, even more so than Tyranids! Where are their machine guns, their flamers, their area denial weapons to counter enemy swarms?

Their reconnaissance and vanguard is also not very impressive; the closest they have to Genestealers and Lictors are Changelings, and those are pure observers, no fighting ability at all really, and their knack is blending in with crowds, not going unseen.

I still don't get where you got the idea that Tyranids can't match the Zerg in the air. Again, the only thing Zerg have that is unequivocally better than the Tyranid equivalent is the Scourge, and that's not going to be enough. Would be funny seeing Overlords compete with Tyrannocytes, though; one is really slow and can't fight at all, the other is really slow and spits a storm of death around itself.

And in terms of underground fighting; aside from the limitations of game mechanics, why wouldn't Trygons and Raveners be able to fight underground? Maybe not attack from below like Lurkers - hey, the one other Zerg unit other than Mutalisks with no real equivalent! - but certainly, they could fight. Nydus Worms have to emerge to do their thing, which leaves them as exposed as anything else.

Jan 31, 2015 5:43:59 GMT jesses said:

The only real advantage the Tyranids have is their brute force attack Psykers and I just don't see those being able to turn the tide against the Zerg's ubiquitous use of parasites and viruses.

And their plenty of area-of-effect, anti-swarm weaponry; barbed stranglers, spore mines, acid sprays... Not to forget heavy ranged weaponry, like bio-plasma cannons, heavy venom cannons and rupture cannons. Oh, and heavy bio-cannons.

[NidNoms]

What have I created?

[jesses]

I'm gonna try and respond to both j0rdan and lordsia at the same time.

Base Assumptions: I grant that taking away the Tyranids overwhelming numbers takes away one of their integral tactics but... that's also an integral tactic for the Zerg so... they both can't have it, which means I feel it's a more fair comparison if both lose it rather than argue who should keep it. Again, with the style of army both represent whoever keeps it wins so...

Quick Notes: We are coming to a few places from opposite angles.

lordsia says; "Okay, first of all, game mechanics are game mechanics; at best, they provide an outline for abilities, not a definitive descriptor."

IMHO I'm actually leaning my thoughts and ideas based MORE on game-play rather than fluff. Gameplay tends to be a more consistent picture of the army (SoB: Exterminatus is great example of this where at first the Necrons are restored to having true-FTL that ignores the Warp/Webway in the opening chapter, and then are returned to using the incredibly stupid Dolmen Gates idea later in the book because the two authors were using different canon). So in my opinion while there are stories of Gaunts overwhelming things like a Baneblade they should be considered a relative rarity (especially as other fluff, such as Exterminatus, explicitly contradict that where the tides are Gants/Gaunts are useless until the arrival of Trygon's and Toxicrene's to help them).

Summary, IMHO gameplay trumps fluff stories when attempting to determine the 'average' abilities of a unit.

Adaptability: By this I mean biological adaptability. Now Games-Workshop LOVES to describe the Tyranids as adaptable to all situations but the Tau/Gorgon story (with a limited hat-tip to Shadowbrink although BARELY for at least saying they learn to overcome and resist the Nurgle plagues) is pretty much the only demonstratble example of them doing it. In nearly every other story they just eventually overwhelm the enemy with numbers, or do the predictable GW ploy of "pour all of X into the battle for long periods of time, now switch to pouring in Y!"

It's not since the 4th Edition Codex that the Tyranids have actually been adaptable, able to change the units at army creation to fulfill a huge variety of roles. In contrast the Zerg make this a central theme of plots, their game mechanics, even cutscenes. Now if the design ethos of the 4th Ed Codex had been maintained I'd have called this one a draw but we've had two editions of books where we can't adapt worth poop so I'm staunchly giving this to the Zerg.

Attack Vectors: Deathstorm is actually a great example of what I mean. The Genestealers have been on-planet for minimum many decades, more likely centuries (literally, they describe the Genestealer mutation as being part of the dark lineage of the Governor's family for generation) and they have, at best, infested the warrens and catacombs of the planet. Genestealers take TIME. The Zerg infect like a real disease, able to get into a single person and turn that person Zerg in a matter of days or weeks. Their viruses attack at a cellular level, something the Tyranids have never been shown to do (which is weird because their spores blatantly corrupt flora). I mean the Zerg creep is them corrupting a planet in real time.

Tyranids use burrowing far, far worse than the Zerg do. Tyranids have no Lurker equivalent. They have no Nydus Worm equivalent. Even their best burrowers need to surface to attack.

Both have a Drop Pod equivalent so I'll give that one a pass as equals.

Sure Deathleaper is supposedly a master assassin but that's one absurdly specialised creature. The Zerg pull of assassinations with what amounts to front-line troops.

Gargantuan Creatures: j0rdan watch this video: www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVbeoSPqRs4

An Ultralisk so much larger than a Carnifex its not even funny. They are easily on par with a Hierophant, and therefore (if we are playing by fair rules here) would be relatively immune to Toxin Sacs for the same reasons.

Artillery & Fortifications: Sadly here you are just mistaken. In 21st century warfare fortifications are explicitly not used. The Blitz taught us that lesson decades ago and we haven't forgotten it. Air based fire support is so completely and hilariously superior to ground based artillery it isn't even funny. That's why the US spends an absurd amount on Aircraft Carriers, because their ability to project air superiority is the key to winning wars. The ability, scratch that the NEED to re-position swiftly in order to strike new targets is the core of modern strategies. Guardians/Brood Lords simply trump Exocrines/Biovores. Full stop.

Air Superiority: I'm not saying that Flyrants are non-existent, I'm saying they are -explicitly- a relative rarity (which brings up another point I'll expand on after the air superiority section here). Sure Crones have Tentaclids (which don't work all that well on living creatures) but they primarily attack up close and personal. Zerg have more varied and better equipped air units. They would just dominate this fight.

Synapse is a Weakness: You can;t even argue this one heh, Synapse is purposefully designed to be the Tyranids greatest weakness. The Zerg have no battlefield equivalent. Sure you can go after their ships in orbit but that applies to the Tyranids as well. Whereas on the ground a concentrated strategy of nailing every Synapse Creature is, over and over again in the fluff and the table-top, a ridiculously successful strategy you cannot do the same to the Zerg. The Zerg have no lynchpin units. Everything is expendable. The closest they have is Kerrigan and they don't even need her, the various broods then just operate on their own. Taking out Kerrigan just means that Kerrigan no longer controls them.

[jesses]

Feb 4, 2015 2:01:56 GMT NidNoms said:

What have I created?

Haha, I can't speak for the others but I'm having fun :3

[NidNoms]

Feb 4, 2015 2:48:55 GMT jesses said:

Feb 4, 2015 2:01:56 GMT NidNoms said:

What have I created?

Haha, I can't speak for the others but I'm having fun :3

Glad to hear it

[j0rdan]

Whew, this is getting dense (verbally, not intellectually) .

Base Assumptions: Again, why? Why can't they both have it? You'll find that this point, if you stop arbitrarily messing with it, trumps every other point in this argument. The tyranid footprint on the galaxy(s) makes a laughing-stock of the zerg footprint. It's not more than fair because you're taking more away from the nids than you are from the zerg.

Game Mechanics: It's not that these are bad arguments, it's that you are being inconsistent with your application of them. It's not fair to point to game mechanics/play only when it suits one side or the other, but not both. Later on in your post, you point me to a video of a Ultra. I'm at work, so I can't actually watch the video ATM, but is it safe to assume it's a cutscene? Because I KNOW that Ultras aren't as big as you describe when you're actually playing with them in game. Nids aren't the only ones that have inconsistent fluff about some things. You don't like the fluff about gaunts clogging up a tank? Fine, take the actual apoc rules that allow gargoyles to clog up aircraft.

You are obviously allowed to have your own opinion, but it's hard to respond to it in a cohesive way if you don't apply your logic fairly.

Adaptability: I feel like you are kind of down-playing the Shadowbrink thing here. Nurgle is the literal GOD OF DISEASE. Nids shrugged that off. Come on, man... About the 4th edition thing, well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Have you looked at the warrior entry lately? You can build those guys to do anything. Points-wise, it's not the most efficient maybe, but the point is, yes, the nids can change units "at army creation to fulfill a huge variety of roles". This is something most units in 40k, and in starcraft (all races) can ALL do. I don't see how you give zergs and advantage here (considering we're only talking about gameplay, I guess).

Attack Vectors: I just read Deathstorm. Yesturday. Again, literally NOTHING in it takes away decades of established history for Genestealers. This ONE planet was corrupted this ONE way this ONE time. I think what you're trying to get at is that Zerg corruption is, on the individual scale, much faster. It is! Genestealers have the luxury of being in position GENERATIONS before the invasion, as opposed to days, so I fail to see how the quicker incubation period is actually an advantage for zerg on the whole here.

Burrowing"If we are talking ONLY gameplay here, then I guess I'll concede this one... except that Nids don't need anything like creep.

Drop Pods: I don't know anything about Zerg pods, so I'll assume they get up, walk around and shoot like nid ones and assume it's a draw I guess.

Deathleaper: Again, normal Genestealers and normal lictors are what make: "zerg nids full of assassinations with what amounts to front line troops."

Gargntuans: I already addressed part of this above. Poisons though. You are granting Ultras immunities to nid weaponry because of their similarity to a nid unit. That is, again, not zerg gameplay. Don't even get me started about how many bonuses nids get if we get to start adding things based on similarity...

Artillery & Fortifications: I actually agree with this. To be fair, I wasn't stacking exos and bios up against zerg air units.

Air Superiority: Here's my biggest beef with your entire post. You are all about gameplay over fluff. Flyrants are EVERYWHERE on the tabletop. How do you justify downplaying tyranid fluff advantages in the same breath that you up-play their tabletop disadvantages? Crones literally have options for close and ranged combat, and EXCELL at airborne melee. I just don't understand why you downplay this either. The flyrant (with all his options) and crone more than make up for the lack of diversity in airborne units. And we haven't even considered shrikes really...

Synapse is a Weakness: I absolutely can argue this one. Is it Nid's greatest weakness? Sure! It's also their greatest strength. Synapse provides fearless. It has for so long that I feel people take for granted just how powerful a buff that is. Synapse can be provided from multiple sources, giving the command structure unprecedented redundancy. You have to take out every synapse node to make the horde scatter (but they might just rampage instead!). You have to take out ONE leader to drive a zerg force into disarray. Circumstance determines the advantage here, because Kerrigan sure does like to lead a lot of her own missions. And the overmind is a giant eggplant, so there's that. Humans actually overwhelmed and took control of the zerg in SC1!!!!!

[NidNoms]

Feb 4, 2015 22:11:19 GMT j0rdan said:

Whew, this is getting dense (verbally, not intellectually) .

Base Assumptions: Again, why? Why can't they both have it? You'll find that this point, if you stop arbitrarily messing with it, trumps every other point in this argument. The tyranid footprint on the galaxy(s) makes a laughing-stock of the zerg footprint. It's not more than fair because you're taking more away from the nids than you are from the zerg.

Game Mechanics: It's not that these are bad arguments, it's that you are being inconsistent with your application of them. It's not fair to point to game mechanics/play only when it suits one side or the other, but not both. Later on in your post, you point me to a video of a Ultra. I'm at work, so I can't actually watch the video ATM, but is it safe to assume it's a cutscene? Because I KNOW that Ultras aren't as big as you describe when you're actually playing with them in game. Nids aren't the only ones that have inconsistent fluff about some things. You don't like the fluff about gaunts clogging up a tank? Fine, take the actual apoc rules that allow gargoyles to clog up aircraft.

You are obviously allowed to have your own opinion, but it's hard to respond to it in a cohesive way if you don't apply your logic fairly.

Adaptability: I feel like you are kind of down-playing the Shadowbrink thing here. Nurgle is the literal GOD OF DISEASE. Nids shrugged that off. Come on, man... About the 4th edition thing, well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Have you looked at the warrior entry lately? You can build those guys to do anything. Points-wise, it's not the most efficient maybe, but the point is, yes, the nids can change units "at army creation to fulfill a huge variety of roles". This is something most units in 40k, and in starcraft (all races) can ALL do. I don't see how you give zergs and advantage here (considering we're only talking about gameplay, I guess).

Attack Vectors: I just read Deathstorm. Yesturday. Again, literally NOTHING in it takes away decades of established history for Genestealers. This ONE planet was corrupted this ONE way this ONE time. I think what you're trying to get at is that Zerg corruption is, on the individual scale, much faster. It is! Genestealers have the luxury of being in position GENERATIONS before the invasion, as opposed to days, so I fail to see how the quicker incubation period is actually an advantage for zerg on the whole here.

Burrowing"If we are talking ONLY gameplay here, then I guess I'll concede this one... except that Nids don't need anything like creep.

Drop Pods: I don't know anything about Zerg pods, so I'll assume they get up, walk around and shoot like nid ones and assume it's a draw I guess.

Deathleaper: Again, normal Genestealers and normal lictors are what make: "zerg nids full of assassinations with what amounts to front line troops."

Gargntuans: I already addressed part of this above. Poisons though. You are granting Ultras immunities to nid weaponry because of their similarity to a nid unit. That is, again, not zerg gameplay. Don't even get me started about how many bonuses nids get if we get to start adding things based on similarity...

Artillery & Fortifications: I actually agree with this. To be fair, I wasn't stacking exos and bios up against zerg air units.

Air Superiority: Here's my biggest beef with your entire post. You are all about gameplay over fluff. Flyrants are EVERYWHERE on the tabletop. How do you justify downplaying tyranid fluff advantages in the same breath that you up-play their tabletop disadvantages? Crones literally have options for close and ranged combat, and EXCELL at airborne melee. I just don't understand why you downplay this either. The flyrant (with all his options) and crone more than make up for the lack of diversity in airborne units. And we haven't even considered shrikes really...

Synapse is a Weakness: I absolutely can argue this one. Is it Nid's greatest weakness? Sure! It's also their greatest strength. Synapse provides fearless. It has for so long that I feel people take for granted just how powerful a buff that is. Synapse can be provided from multiple sources, giving the command structure unprecedented redundancy. You have to take out every synapse node to make the horde scatter (but they might just rampage instead!). You have to take out ONE leader to drive a zerg force into disarray. Circumstance determines the advantage here, because Kerrigan sure does like to lead a lot of her own missions. And the overmind is a giant eggplant, so there's that. Humans actually overwhelmed and took control of the zerg in SC1!!!!!

Take it easy! i totally agree that game play is not the best source of information and we should try and keep this in Fluff standards.

also to help you about Zerg Drop pods, they just splatter and die on impact, think of it like uh. A Space Marine Drop Pod that just collapses after use or something like that

[j0rdan]

Sorry if I come off mad, didn't mean too. Honestly if you boil everything down, it's going to become a popularity contest in any case. I just feel that if you are going to use standards for one army, you should be using it for both, or said standards don't do anything to help.

[glassiya]

what time is it?

it's xenomorph time!

[arapaima]

WHAT IF A FACEHUGGER FACED HUGGED A DIMACHAERON?
GAME OVER MAN GAME OVER.

I will argue synapse will be the nid's greatest strength. Under it, the nids are operating in such a high degree of tactical efficiency and control that it would make a champion broodwar player jealous. According to our codex, the average hive tyrant have an affinity to strategem that it could put some of the greatest military minds of the 41st millennium to shame. Many of those that fall under the latter category are a lot more experienced in warfare than many hive queens serving kerrigan ATM.

Nids don't have lurkers true but their burrowers would have eaten their shares of lurkers and multilate a nydus worm or two before bursting out to wrecking your hatcheries and upgrade facilities.

Zerg infantry are very vulnerable to long range ordinance in lore and game. Nids have plenty of those in the form of biovores, Barbie's, exocrines, dactylis and barbed strangler equipped organims . In a contest of equal numbers, a prelimary bombardment will brutalize zerg ranks the same way siege tanks or a well placed tempest could foil a hydralisk rush. This is lore, so the zergs could attack these artillery organisms with their air force but they too would be tied down by nid aerial assets in a drawn out aerial engagement. Your average crone and harpies could go toe to toe, manevour for manevour against fighters in 40k. Unless zerg could sweep imperial, tau, necron and eldar air with contemptuous ease, they would be bogged down in a dogfight and the nid artillery will continue to pound at the zerg swarm.

[NidNoms]

Zerg and Tyranid information only, no xenomorph

[lordsia]

No bio-artefacts.
No structures.
Close combat only.
Final Destination.

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