|
Post by novo on Aug 20, 2014 21:25:53 GMT
Hey, maybe cc will work for us when we have a GC stomping up the field. It was an anecdote, to spread some hope. ... and it worked. I'm gonna go for broods of crushing claws and screamer killers. I'll make it work somehow!
|
|
|
Carnifex
Aug 20, 2014 21:29:07 GMT
via mobile
Post by Jabberwocky on Aug 20, 2014 21:29:07 GMT
Good for you! Let us know how it works out. Fingers crossed your next opponent isn't flyer spam!
|
|
|
Post by novo on Aug 20, 2014 21:45:57 GMT
Good for you! Let us know how it works out. Fingers crossed your next opponent isn't flyer spam! I have some flyers that should help out with that, and I am running a Flyrant.... although, I haven't placed the weapons yet (waiting for the Forge World TLDevs to arrive). Unless I change my mind and go for a combat Tyrant instead.
|
|
|
Post by jaysic on Aug 20, 2014 22:45:33 GMT
I suggest magnetization, you'll be glad you did it regardless of how you equip your duders most of the time, it's nice to have the option to WYSIWYG change them up. I honestly don't find the bioplasma that attractive, and in my tests have done either AG/CC or Stonecrushers. Haven't done the vanilla brood, yet. Of course, my first 2 fex just showed up the other night, and I'm just brushing them off tonight after sitting in Purple Power for a day. Hobby table priority; Finish Genestealers > Carnifexen > Melee Flyrant (which, performs really well btw).
Edit; Oh, flyers. Negate flyer spam with clever positioning. Let them fly around and not do much, then profit.
|
|
|
Post by Yautja on Aug 20, 2014 22:49:32 GMT
I just think Crushing Claws are overkill and a waste of a weapon slot on a MC that already has an amazing S9. A Fex assaulting with AG already has a 50% chance to glance (with each of it's 4 hits) the toughest vehicles in the game so why not just give it Devourers to make it a threat to pretty much everything?
Sadly, I don't think any Fex spec option comes close to two Devourers and AG.
|
|
|
Post by jaysic on Aug 21, 2014 0:10:21 GMT
Whelp, you don't have a 50% chance to glance AV14 at S9. If you have 4 attacks on the charge, you'll hit with ~2.7 Only 1/3rd of those will glance, causing .88 HP of damage, on average, to any AV14 armor. What about Hammer of Wrath? Well you average 2 hits, and .66 HP from that. So normal fex, no ag, no CC, you cause 1.54 HP of damage on the charge AG + CC, on the other hand, will do the same amount of damage from HoW. You now have 5 attacks, for 3.35 hits. You now have S10 Armorbane (2D6) which have a 91.7% chance to damage AV14, as compared to the .33% of S9 vanillafex. This comes to 3.07 hp. So, on the charge, you have Fex with 1 set CCW, no CC, and no AG, at 1.54 HP AG/CC Fex comes to 3.73 HP More than twice the Hull Points. If we look at Stone Crushers, you have 1.83 HP from HoW (S10 armorbane) Then you have another 1.5 HP from the charge (S10 Tank hunter) Gives you a total of 3.33 HP. It's also important to note that on the Vanillafex and SC/AG fex, only their normal attacks, not HoW have a chance to 'splode the vehicle, whereas the Stone Crusher can 'Splode on any attack. All 3 of these setups cost 150 points. Setup
| HoW Damage
| Attacks Damage
| Total Damage
| Instakill %
| Dakkafex | .66 | .88 | 1.54
| 15% | AG/CC Fex
| .66 | 3.07 | 3.73
| 52% | StoneCrusher | 1.83 | 1.5 | 3.33
| 57% |
Against AV14, in a vacuum, the AG/CC fex is the clear winner. Against Imperial Knights, well, we already had that discussion. Against Light transports? Well, any of these will kill any transport, but a Dakkafex can do it from range (yay!). Of course, there are LOTS of things that can kill light transports (Hive Guard, Any MC in H2H, Zoans, adrenal horms, genestealers, AG or RC on warriors/shrikes/ravaners, FMCs, the list goes on).
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on Aug 21, 2014 1:31:47 GMT
i'd take them if they were 90 points base.
|
|
|
Carnifex
Aug 21, 2014 5:31:42 GMT
via mobile
Post by novo on Aug 21, 2014 5:31:42 GMT
I just think Crushing Claws are overkill and a waste of a weapon slot on a MC that already has an amazing S9. A Fex assaulting with AG already has a 50% chance to glance (with each of it's 4 hits) the toughest vehicles in the game so why not just give it Devourers to make it a threat to pretty much everything? Sadly, I don't think any Fex spec option comes close to two Devourers and AG. Overkill is right up my alley! If it's worth doing, then it's worth over-doing! I would rather stack the odds of taking out heavy hitters in my favor.
|
|
|
Carnifex
Aug 21, 2014 8:46:15 GMT
via mobile
Post by Yautja on Aug 21, 2014 8:46:15 GMT
Whelp, you don't have a 50% chance to glance AV14 at S9. If you have 4 attacks on the charge, you'll hit with ~2.7 Only 1/3rd of those will glance, causing .88 HP of damage, on average, to any AV14 armor. What about Hammer of Wrath? Well you average 2 hits, and .66 HP from that. So normal fex, no ag, no CC, you cause 1.54 HP of damage on the charge AG + CC, on the other hand, will do the same amount of damage from HoW. You now have 5 attacks, for 3.35 hits. You now have S10 Armorbane (2D6) which have a 91.7% chance to damage AV14, as compared to the .33% of S9 vanillafex. This comes to 3.07 hp. So, on the charge, you have Fex with 1 set CCW, no CC, and no AG, at 1.54 HP AG/CC Fex comes to 3.73 HP More than twice the Hull Points. If we look at Stone Crushers, you have 1.83 HP from HoW (S10 armorbane) Then you have another 1.5 HP from the charge (S10 Tank hunter) Gives you a total of 3.33 HP. It's also important to note that on the Vanillafex and SC/AG fex, only their normal attacks, not HoW have a chance to 'splode the vehicle, whereas the Stone Crusher can 'Splode on any attack. All 3 of these setups cost 150 points. Setup
| HoW Damage
| Attacks Damage
| Total Damage
| Instakill %
| Dakkafex | .66 | .88 | 1.54
| 15% | AG/CC Fex
| .66 | 3.07 | 3.73
| 52% | StoneCrusher | 1.83 | 1.5 | 3.33
| 57% |
Against AV14, in a vacuum, the AG/CC fex is the clear winner. Against Imperial Knights, well, we already had that discussion. Against Light transports? Well, any of these will kill any transport, but a Dakkafex can do it from range (yay!). Of course, there are LOTS of things that can kill light transports (Hive Guard, Any MC in H2H, Zoans, adrenal horms, genestealers, AG or RC on warriors/shrikes/ravaners, FMCs, the list goes on). Eh? All that math is way off. First of all, I was stating the case that two Devourers and AG is the best spec. This means assaulting @ S10, not 9. So against AV14 that is indeed a 50% chance to glance per hit. Secondly, more often than not, a Carnifex assaulting a tank is automatically hitting with all attacks. Hence 4 successful hits, each needing 4s to glance the toughest vehicles in the game.
|
|
|
Carnifex
Aug 21, 2014 8:56:30 GMT
via mobile
Post by Jabberwocky on Aug 21, 2014 8:56:30 GMT
How often are tanks not moving? Especially av14 ones. Especially when a brood of fex is heading straight at them.
The S10 thing though you're right, although I believe he was trying to make all 3 builds the exact same cost.
|
|
|
Post by Squire on Aug 21, 2014 9:47:37 GMT
I'll take a pair of dakkafex, but partially because I'll only run a single dakka flyrant. If I were taking two (or more) flyrants I'd be tempted to do one dakkafex and the other one with crushing claws and one set of devs.
I can't see much justification for fexes without any devourers at all. I think CC and devourers is a pretty good build and particularly like that it's a worthwhile fex you can make straight from the box without converting or buying FW devourers. I bought three sets of those- it stung.
|
|
|
Carnifex
Aug 21, 2014 13:54:26 GMT
via mobile
Post by jaysic on Aug 21, 2014 13:54:26 GMT
I was trying to keep them at the same point cost.
doesn't change much. Dakkafex goes up to 1.34 damage on the assault for a total of 2 HP even.
Nothing hits vehicles automatically anymore with attacks unless it's immobile. Even stationary vehicles are WS1 in 7th.
Edit; I would also like to state there isn't a "Best load out" for Fexen. There are load outs that are best for certain roles, but not for everything.
Dakkafex is a terrible choice for taking out AV14. It can do something to it, but that's not it's role. It should be killing hordes or transports or snapping at fliers, and if its assaulting a monolith then it's ignoring its primary role to go damage a heavy vehicle. I would go so far as to say forget the AG and use the points elsewhere to keep the dakkafex in his role...even though it hurts to suggest not giving fleet to a S9 creature.
AG/CC is best when taking on these heavy vehicles. It is terrible at killing tarpits, cannot affect fliers at all, and is way, way overkill on taking out rhinos.
Stone crusher is close to AGCC fex, but has about a 26% harder time making charges past 6". It really shines against IK where it does damaging hits at I10.
I'm not saying the Dakkafex is bad. It's great at what it does and can, in a pinch, have some Diversity in its role. However, the role that it fills is not unique to the Heavy slot, or any other slot in our force org. The other Fexes bring to the table what nothing else in our book does, except haywire; it deals with AV14. When building a TAC, I want something in my list to deal with that. Nothing beats AGCC for that role, especially for 150 points. I can get my anti-horde (biovores, or our own hordes) elsewhere, as well as my anti transport (Hive Guard).
TLDR; Every job has an appropriate tool.
|
|
|
Post by coredump on Aug 21, 2014 17:09:09 GMT
But I assert that a devil fex (especially with AG) *is* an appropriate tool vs land raiders. It isn't our best possible tool, but a single model taking 2 HP from a LR seems well into the 'appropriate' category. For example, you mention devilfexes should instead snap fire at flyers... where they will also do 1-2 HP of damage.
The upside is they are 'appropriate' against Land raiders and *really good* against dozens of other targets. Its similar to hive guard with shock vs impaler cannons.
IN general, take Devilfexes If you know there are a number of land raiders/monoliths in your meta; add some AG If you *know* you will regularly face 2+ LRs in most games (Or SH types)... then take some CC/AG fexes.
But them comes the question... how many? If you only take one (or 2?) then they become top target priority, and that may not go well unless you have a way to protect them. (catalyst, malan, etc) If you take several... then if you *don't* face LR/SH, you have 'wasted' a lot of points.
|
|
|
Post by jaysic on Aug 21, 2014 23:40:18 GMT
Oh yeah, their versatility is great, 2 HP to LREQ is nothing to sneeze at. I'm not saying they're useless, just that in this specific role, they are completely overshadowed by the other options. I like smash a nail in with a hammer though, not the blunt side of a wrench or the handle of a screwdriver.
I'd also like to make the argument that while yes, a Dakkafex for 150(165) points can do a lot against a lot of different threats (which is a huge merit...I don't know what else in our codex really does this) also weakens you against a lot of threats once focused down. I can see a dakkafex being a great supplement to your army if you also have Crones, Flyrants, ect. I just don't like TL-D (personal taste, not that I think they're bad or shouldn't be taken) and find that the other Fex options fill a role that my type of loadout sorely needs, as well as being the 'optimal' loadout in general, if you know for a fact that you'll be facing the type of targets they want to smash.
I particularly like to be able to handle *nearly* anything I may see in a tourney, and would hate to see 2+ LREQ and have no tools at all to deal with them. My new-age 7th lists I see myself taking at least 2 Carnifexen, and have been debating between 2 broods of 1 or 1 brood of 2. Even if they are top priority over other MCs, they'll have a 3+ save, 3+ cover save, and be a huge fire sink if they do get shot at, which has it's own merits (Stone Crushers especially). They'd get repurposed to back-field objective holding / defense, or midfield. They could also be used as gunline-breakers and used to soak the fire to allow other units up close. I wouldn't see these as being wasted points, and so far, I haven't seen a Carnifex focused down over other targets yet.
|
|
|
Carnifex
Aug 22, 2014 2:23:37 GMT
via mobile
Post by novo on Aug 22, 2014 2:23:37 GMT
On the subject of how many Carnifex broods to take, you mentioned taking at least two. I have a brood of two and a brood of one. I am considering a fourth Carnifex for two broods of two for some serious hitting power... or is that going to be more of a liability?
|
|