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Post by chuckles on Sept 19, 2013 23:08:47 GMT
Dark Elves did need it, despite getting a release in late 7th edition. Not many of the models have been updated for YEARS. Fantasy gets played in Europe, but it's pretty much non-existent in the States. Not to derail the thread, but the all-or-nothing, game breaking magic phase, plus the stupid Steadfast rule makes the game almost unplayable. It also moves at a snail's pace. 40k has random elements too, but it's not the same. Random charge distance is mitigated by faster overall movement, ranged weaponry in every army, cover, Fleet, etc. Psychic powers are rolled on a table, but they are cast with the same reliability every turn instead of dependent on a dice pool. Furthermore, 40k moves at a much quicker pace. In 40k, a lot more is in the hands of the player. Not so much in Fantasy. 8th ed is the best Fantasy has been in a long (please do not swear) time. The magic phase doesn't break the game the majority of the time. Steadfast is a problem, but a surmountable one. Random charge distance is a bigger problem in 40K than it is in fantasy because charge distances in Fantasy are not as random as they are in 40K. |
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Post by brassangel on Sept 20, 2013 0:58:51 GMT
Dark Elves did need it, despite getting a release in late 7th edition. Not many of the models have been updated for YEARS. Fantasy gets played in Europe, but it's pretty much non-existent in the States. Not to derail the thread, but the all-or-nothing, game breaking magic phase, plus the stupid Steadfast rule makes the game almost unplayable. It also moves at a snail's pace. 40k has random elements too, but it's not the same. Random charge distance is mitigated by faster overall movement, ranged weaponry in every army, cover, Fleet, etc. Psychic powers are rolled on a table, but they are cast with the same reliability every turn instead of dependent on a dice pool. Furthermore, 40k moves at a much quicker pace. In 40k, a lot more is in the hands of the player. Not so much in Fantasy. 8th ed is the best Fantasy has been in a long (please do not swear) time. The magic phase doesn't break the game the majority of the time. Steadfast is a problem, but a surmountable one. Random charge distance is a bigger problem in 40K than it is in fantasy because charge distances in Fantasy are not as random as they are in 40K. Er...no. The sales numbers and consensus feedback on 8th edition disagree with you in spades. Random charge distance is AWFUL in Fantasy because the movement phase is perhaps the most important phase in the game. You set up every little turn, pivot, angle, etc., and then fail the charge. You get flanked in response and die. Woo hoo. In 40k, everyone moves 6" or more, has fleet, has effective shooting, etc., so it's easier to set up the exact distance you need to maximize the chances of landing a charge. By the math, your statement isn't even close to correct. As to the magic phase: tell that to Ogres players who watch 1100 points disappear in a single turn thanks to Purple Sun. Or watch a Tzeentch list do absolutely nothing for a turn because they roll a 3. Magic is too...swingy. And steadfast? It's hilarious watching a 600 point dragon flanking a 120 point squad of little dudes...and lose. I went through about 60 games thinking it would average out. Way too much of the game is dependent on the dice. In 40k, so much more is in my hands. Good play is rewarded in 40k, whereas good play is nearly irrelevant in Fantasy. What's more, the rules are needlessly complicated, yet don't reward the players who know how to utilize them. I swear you've never played the game. The feedback is resoundingly in agreement with what I'm saying. The sales have declined steadily immediately following the release of 8th edition. That is no coincidence. |
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Post by coredump on Sept 20, 2013 3:12:28 GMT
Everyone I have heard from says 8th Ed is better than the past few editions.
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Post by ksp on Sept 20, 2013 5:21:28 GMT
8th is balls. It's why I no longer play it. Ruined my vampire counts with the new aarmy book, brass angel is correct in his previous statement, if fantasy is almost non existent in the US and A and is on a fairly quick decline in Europe then gw need to do something drastic to pull it back. Fantasy is dying because of 8th
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Post by Jabberwocky on Sept 20, 2013 6:04:25 GMT
My only gripe with fantasy is the FAQ. It's been game changing and flip flopped so many times with no real reason.
I think also the fact that comp systems are the norm for tournaments show the balance must be fairly out.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2013 6:21:08 GMT
I really don't see GW taking up the 2 pre-Christmas months for Dark Elves. Makes no sense. Even if Nids come out January, I'd bet money on November not being more Dark Elves. During another time of the year or for a high selling army? Possibly. With the rate they are updating different armies and in prime holiday months? Don't buy it. Which gives me more hope we'll have Nidvember as the 2 months of DE part is just too far off for me to believe.
Holiday sales are just too much of a focus for business' like GW for a move like that. If DE were GW's bread and butter, possibly. I could see GW doing it for SM, but that's about it.
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Post by t⊗theark on Sept 20, 2013 7:12:58 GMT
O hope it's dark elves just because I have them and a lot of the models are old.
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Post by chuckles on Sept 20, 2013 9:10:58 GMT
Er...no. The sales numbers and consensus feedback on 8th edition disagree with you in spades. Random charge distance is AWFUL in Fantasy because the movement phase is perhaps the most important phase in the game. You set up every little turn, pivot, angle, etc., and then fail the charge. You get flanked in response and die. Woo hoo. In 40k, everyone moves 6" or more, has fleet, has effective shooting, etc., so it's easier to set up the exact distance you need to maximize the chances of landing a charge. By the math, your statement isn't even close to correct. As to the magic phase: tell that to Ogres players who watch 1100 points disappear in a single turn thanks to Purple Sun. Or watch a Tzeentch list do absolutely nothing for a turn because they roll a 3. Magic is too...swingy. And steadfast? It's hilarious watching a 600 point dragon flanking a 120 point squad of little dudes...and lose. I went through about 60 games thinking it would average out. Way too much of the game is dependent on the dice. In 40k, so much more is in my hands. Good play is rewarded in 40k, whereas good play is nearly irrelevant in Fantasy. What's more, the rules are needlessly complicated, yet don't reward the players who know how to utilize them. I swear you've never played the game. The feedback is resoundingly in agreement with what I'm saying. The sales have declined steadily immediately following the release of 8th edition. That is no coincidence. There are two logical fallacies in your opening paragraph. The first is correlation = causation and the second is appeal to the majority. Neither are necessarily the case. 8th Edition was released in 2010 just as the global financial crisis was really starting to bite into people's disposable income. That being the case there is at least one plausible explanation for falling WHFB sales figures besides "the rules are (please do not swear) now". Furthermore, just because fewer people are playing it does not mean that it is objectively "worse", simply less popular. More people went to see Fast & Furious 6 than Scott Pilgrim vs The Universe, but that doesn't tell you which is the better film (It's Scott Pilgrim). Warhammer is a game played with dice. Sometimes things that you think should be a sure thing will go wrong. That's the way it goes. However, it isn't difficult to determine what the statistical probability of a successful or failed charge at any given distance is, and with the ability to pre-measure anything you fancy it is a simple matter of figuring out the likelihood that your charge will succeed or fail at the given distance. This will not protect you from statistical outliers, but again, that's the hobby we play. When your Deathstar unit whiffs its attack rolls do you declare the To Hit rules broken? In Fantasy your basic move distance may well be higher than it is in 40K (taking into account marching, it is for the majority of units in the game), you have access to Swiftstride etc, so ultimately the differences are not as pronounced as you suggest. Perhaps said Ogre player shouldn't have put around half their army list's value into a single unit? The giant spells are for the most part protection from deathstars, and therefore do an important job very effectively. They are also not totally reliable. Taking a deathstar isn't and shouldn't be an automatic "I win" button. Purple Sun, Dwellers etc are anti-deathstar insurance, and they have a chance to fail (and you may not even get access to them). If you think good play is not rewarded in Fantasy then frankly you're just not very good at it. I'm playing a lot more Fantasy than I am 40K right now (not due to the relative strengths of the systems, though I do think 8th ed WHFB is better than 6th Ed 40K by a small but significant margin, but because the armies I play are in rough shape in 40K and great shape in WHFB) and I can assure you that there is still plenty of skill involved. As I say, I play a lot of Fantasy right now, and I follow the tournament scene etc very closely. Your attempt to claim that there is consensus over 8th ed's quality is incorrect. There are at least as many people in the tournament scene saying 8th ed Fantasy is, mostly, excellent as there are saying it is terribad and has ruined the game. Is it perfect? Certainly not. The BSB + General + Steadfast combo has rendered leadership effects drastically underpowered, the To Wound chart is utterly stupid, Steadfast in general needs tweaking to make non-monstrous cavalry more appealing (though they also need to drop in price), the giant monsters are nowhere near consistent enough in quality (meaning a lot of people aren't bothering with them when 2 cannons for half the points can blow one away in seconds) and magic is a little too close to compulsory for my liking (especially when you consider that one of my mains, currently boxed up and unused, are the utterly unmagical Dwarfs). However, it is still, in mine and many other people's opinions, about as good as Fantasy has been in a long time. It is a drastic improvement over 7th and 6th editions just for starters, and I'd say it's managed to find a place where characters can be effective and worth their points without the game turning into Herohammer |
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Post by Inquisitor Stingray on Sept 20, 2013 10:27:41 GMT
Even if November does not see the release of Tyranids, surely something 40K-related is bound to happen. Even if it's just Codex Supplements, it'd be strange of not imprudent for Games Workshop to leave 40K-players, whom I gather make up the majority of their customers, with something to buy/wish for during holiday seasons. Especially since December will most likely see the release of LOTR/Hobbit models, and I have yet to meet a person who plays that/those games.
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Post by N.I.B. on Sept 20, 2013 10:47:53 GMT
I took the last step and left fantasy for 40K after my first 8th ed tournament, but I can't say it was due to the changes in game play, 8th ed just coincided with me wanting to start a Tyranid army. With that said I enjoyed 7th ed much better, the main problem was external balance between army books (Matt Ward and GavT destroyed 7th ed with Daemons and Dark Elves).
8th ed feels like Warhammer Fantasy - the Kid's Edition. Random charges, redonculous magic phase and huge monsters for every army but no one can field them because of OP cannons. 8th ed is not fit for competitive play, unless you apply the swedish comp system or similar.
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Post by chuckles on Sept 20, 2013 11:06:07 GMT
With that said I enjoyed 7th ed much better, the main problem was external balance between army books (Matt Ward and GavT destroyed 7th ed with Daemons and Dark Elves). You forgot Vampire Counts, much worse than DE. By the end of 7th Ed tournaments were basically nothing but Daemons vs Daemons, VC vs VC, Daemons vs VC... The main problem however was not external balanace between army books, it was the core balance of the game. When those books were brought up to scratch (points values etc) they became horribly broken simply because Fear as an army-wide mechanic was far too powerful. Had TK been redone at the same time (and not been written by somebody who doesn't understand how to balance an army's flaws and strengths- Cruddace strikes again) they'd have been in the same category. In 7th Ed, army-wide fear available to cheap and/or spammable units was crippling. 8th ed feels like Warhammer Fantasy - the Kid's Edition. Random charges, redonculous magic phase and huge monsters for every army but no one can field them because of OP cannons. 8th ed is not fit for competitive play, unless you apply the swedish comp system or similar. Don't understand why random charges are "for kids", I've already explained why the magic phase is the way it is, and cannons are only "OP" because of the LOS rules- the problem with monsters is mostly that their own rules aren't written very well (and the utter stupidity of the new To Wound chart), and/or they tend to cost too much in points. The Bastiladon is a freakin' great monster cause it isn't apocalyptically expensive |
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Post by chuckles on Sept 20, 2013 11:24:21 GMT
Of course these arguments about 8th Ed are becoming rapidly irrelevant because it looks like 9th Ed is going to hit fairly soon.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2013 15:33:18 GMT
Can the WHFB debate move to another place? Gettimg pretty off-topic, unless the new Tyranid Codex is for 40K and FB...
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Post by Draezymous on Sept 20, 2013 17:03:06 GMT
Can the WHFB debate move to another place? Gettimg pretty off-topic, unless the new Tyranid Codex is for 40K and FB... ^ Now THAT is something I'd like to see...! Munching on my friend's High/Wood/Dark Elves with e few Carnifex's and whatnot would really look awesome to me! Even more so Hive Guard and Zoanthropes; not even getting started about Winged Hive Tyrants...! Anyhow, to refrain from going off topic, I don't think the Dark Elves(or any other fantasy army for that matter) release will cover two full months; first of all (like many people already said) since the holidays are just around the corner. Of course GW has a reputation for various ''hit and miss'' actions, but I dont think they'd want to miss out on holiday shoppers. I expect that they will hold some kits from the new release back at the inital release date (insert your own reasons here), and spread out the boxed sets more to please everybody's wallets. Secondly, I doubt a two-month release simply based on the way the releases for 6th ed have been so far. They have all been pretty consistent up to now, and I doubt they will change that. I don't expect Nidvember to be not true, but I also wouldn't be phazed if it didn't happen. My bets are (seeing that the holidays are coming, and therefore a lot of money) that any ''swarm army'' (ie, us, Guard, Orks) has a good chance of getting the [name]-vember..! |
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Post by brassangel on Sept 20, 2013 17:54:49 GMT
I think what we will see in November is a bunch of the new format "Strike Force" boxes. That will be their holiday deal, and make up for what will surely be a nothing December of Hobbit junk.
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