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Post by Sensei on Jun 30, 2013 6:37:45 GMT
I'm not really sure why anyone is morally opposed to the genestealer cult....if you don't like them, don't take them. They provide an option for people who do want them. They also happen to at least rectify the hole with allies for anyone who wants them, and they add flavour to the dex. It isn't a mandatory requirement to play nids.
As for terrain/fortification, I think GW has some amazing potential with nids, whether they will realize it or utilize it is another question. I think the idea above about capilliary towers providing synapse or whatnot is a really cool idea. I think GW can expand on it a lot. For example at base value, it provides synapse within 6 inches. For a cost, the capilliary tower can be altered/mutated/grown into something specific; within 12 inches flyers take d3 hits - on a 5+ it takes a glancing hit to represent the spores in the air clogging vents/smashing windows etc. Or within 12 inches enemy models take dagerous terrain tests, or it could provide cover. I'd like to see any tyranid fortifications provide subtle field control and area denial capabilities rather than outright firepower or direct damage. It means the enemy could potentially choose to completely avoid it, but it assists in board control.
As for the dex, overall, I'd like to see all units useable. I think there are some great things in our current dex, and I think there are some things that have potential but were not fully developed or were held back by obvious overcosting for sales purposes (I'm looking at you carnifex...). Either way, I think we need to have our dex come to a middle ground. Take the OMG AUTOWIN doom/tervigon/devourer/hiveguard, but also the failsauce pyrovore/warrior/harpy/venom cannon and bring them closer to a balanced line.
tl/dr - make the dex useable by at least balancing it internally so all choices are viable.
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Post by gigasnail on Jun 30, 2013 8:03:56 GMT
i think the worry is that stealer cults are going to suck. 'oh, you'll have allies, now stop crying about it. of course they don't fill any gaps in your codex, but hey, it's fluffy and you've got allies.'
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Post by infornography on Jun 30, 2013 12:03:50 GMT
That is a silly thing to worry about, I honestly don't think Games Workshop has paid any significant attention to the fact that Tyranids don't have allies or that other codecies do. Every codex that has come out since 6th edition demonstrates a lack of significant weaknesses that need an ally to shore them up with the possible exception of the Dark Angels and flyers.
To deny a fluffy group of units simply because you are afraid that it's presence will give GW a license to slack off on the main codex is just selfish and silly.
I would very much like to see genestealer cults make a comeback and I think the idea has a lot of potential for interesting units that aren't a rehash of something we already have tons of.
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Jun 30, 2013 17:20:49 GMT
Quick note on the sixth codices so far, only Tau seems to be a completely solo build, even Chaos/Daemons seem to need each other for something, Daemons lacking anti-air and Marines on cheaper options. Eldar have no anti-air that isn't absurdly overcosted, Dark Angels same thing. They are all seeemingly designed with bringing allies in, to FILL that hole in your army.
I honestly don't think they wanted to touch Tyranids up until this point in sixth. Flier book? Only race not to be included. Terrain, fortifications, allies, challenges, and anything else that has been introduced as of late, we got sidelined. Our ONE saving grace has been the introduction of BIOMANCY. I fully agree with Gigasnail on this one. Unless our book is the only one to change the allies reference on page 113 of the BRB, which none of the others have even come close to doing, COME THE APOCOLYPSE!
Pick any of the other races (ALL of them can ally with Guard to some extent only Necrons and Dark Eldar are Deseperate, we are literally the only race that can't,) if you want to ally Guard in. I understand Genestealer cults were there before and still play a big part in the background of the vanguard creatures, but why do we want humans involved again? We tried the Zoat thing and the Imperium exterminated them all. (GW likes to remove these ideas for a reason, as they either botched it or it was just not suiting to start.)
Putting something there simply because you want to use the old models, or because it would open conversion ideas is strange. Why not just do the Ork thing and copy their old "looted" stuffs idea. Instead of human based you just pick your race of choice and use their rules. Problem solved? Sure can't wait to have to buy a bunch of stupid human/ork/chaos stuff just to balance my Nids out.. Come the Apocolypse was one of the few things GW got right with us this edition.
I'm sure I'm not alone in saying I picked the most alien race because they AREN'T like everything else. Do we really need a ripoff Broodlord running around with las weaponry doing what the rest of our codex does and kill infantry?.. Sigh..
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Post by Malkyr on Jun 30, 2013 18:08:27 GMT
I played both Tyranids and Genestealer Cult in 2nd edition (the army list was just a section in the back of the Tyranid book) and I can promise you I just ran them because I thought they seemed cool. They were pretty awful on the table, though possibly I just wasn't a great tactician as a teenager. I would win games with my Tyranids, but the Genestealer Cult lists of the time had no armor, garbage weaponry, and nothing fast enough to make it across the table in the face of the overwhelming firepower of 2nd edition (combined with the stupidly overpowered Overwatch rules).
Anyone who actually ran a Genestealer Cult army back then only did so to be different and because they thought it was fun. It was a massively underpowered list.
I don't know if people nowadays actually realize this or not, but the fact that it still has such a fanbase means that GW needs to do something to sell it. Even if it doesn't add anything at all to the codex people like 16 year old me will spend hours converting and painting up cultists just to have them die in droves on the battlefield.
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Post by gigasnail on Jun 30, 2013 19:02:53 GMT
i'm not too interested in running an army that just gets shot off the table. it's just not my thing.
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Post by Malkyr on Jun 30, 2013 20:48:17 GMT
From what I've seen of modern GW philosophy I doubt you have to worry about that. They don't release quirky but unbalanced lists like the old Cult anymore. I'm sure they will fix the awful Pyrovore sales...err rules in the upcoming codex.
I wonder if gamers are actually more competitive now, or if the internet has just allowed a subset of players to vocally declare why you shouldn't run certain things and people listen?
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Post by Psychichobo on Jun 30, 2013 21:29:48 GMT
Well, the important thing is that this book won't be written by Cruddace. I don't like to hate on the guy, but Nids are a pretty awkward army to balance when it comes to the way vehicles and flyers are present in the meta, and he's not good at writing up balanced books, simply put. Hopefully whoever does this will at least address the very well-known issue of Nid overpricing.
I like the idea of a Genestealer Cult supplement. It lets people who liked the army, or have the models, do something with them; it lets people explore new army lists and playstyles; and they might also include some much-needed weaponry or units to help with flyers and all that.
Plus, no-one's holding a gun to your head and making you play them. Lighten up people, if you want your Nids containing no trace of human, you can have that.
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Post by Davor on Jun 30, 2013 21:30:06 GMT
I am not holding my breath. I can't even see GW doing anything to entice people to play Tyranids. If anything, I have a feeling, we will by whaling and begging for Cruddence to write our codex. I have a feeling we will just get hosed, and Cruddence will look like a genius.
I hope this is not the case, but seeing we have no allies, no gun emplacements. Not that I want them, but us just not being on equal footing as other people. Just not fun playing someone when they can do it and we can't just because of a "we say so" from GW.
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Post by Kwodd on Jul 1, 2013 2:00:28 GMT
Davor I think changing your attitude from we don't get it to we don't need it would do your game some good. Nids are awesome and IMO better and more versatile than they were in 6th edition, sure genestealers got nerfed but who needs em. Tyrants are twice as viable as they were before biomancy, so are tervigons. Vehicles got crushed with the addition of hull points, this nerfed every army EXCEPT nids. I have a feeling you are still trying to run a 5th edition army when what you should really do is adapt and evolve, it is the tyranid way.
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Post by infornography on Jul 1, 2013 2:04:54 GMT
The lack of gun emplacements I think will be very keenly felt here in a bit when people start getting their Firestorm Redoubts and their battle cannon turrets. Genestealer cults would be a good way of giving us the ability to use those things without GW having to take back a previous stance.
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Post by Bot on Jul 1, 2013 2:47:17 GMT
Hopefully with the new codex the T-fex will get a point decrease and the new monster would get a more reasonable cost. I'm just sad that Warhammer 40k has turned into a flying and a big monster cirkus... OOOOR reduce the cost of my 6 carnifexes. I will eat everything on the board with those things. Remember when they were biggest and baddest? Or when we could run them as ELITES for 116pts? Ah, the good ol' days... OR give them a skyfire weapon option? Give me a reason to link up my carnifexes with my Tyranid Prime. In a no flyers game dakkafex is king (along with the Trygon) Definitely! A skyfire option would be great!
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Post by biomassbob on Jul 1, 2013 17:16:18 GMT
I am fine with genestealer cults coming out as a supplement. Allows those that want that play style and those units to play them - and might allow use of some guard stuff. I also hope tyranids do not get allies (talking the main dex - stealer cults is a different thing to me). There are many ways for GW to deal with nids not having allies or using gun emplacements - that is give them something to compensate if that is necessary. If nids get skyfire, say the venom cannon redone with it, that would give us various units (warriors, carnifex, tyrants, harpy) that could shoot down flyers/FMC). Since nids still need many models/kits that allows GW to release new kits with the next dex without having to throw in new critters.
As for who write the dex - please don't let Cruddace near it. He had his chance and I dislike the direction he took the army and the way he handled some of the changes (and of course the mess of poor rules/stats/costs - bad internal balance). Didn't Kelly write the 4th edition one? I would like to see things go in that direction (minus the carnifex in elite slots idea which was a bad idea, IMO, from the get go). Nids need more upgrade options for units. The carnifex kit with so many bits that could have uses is such a waste now (on top of the fex being overcosted).
Anyways, GW has lots of ways to show nids are unique without making them like the other humanoid armies. Get rid of special characters like the swarmlord (make it a tyrant upgrade option). Get rid of challenges effecting nids - makes no sense. Even objectives could be handled/approached differently since nids do not care about that - although this would require more thought/creativity to ensure it isn't botched so I don't see it happening.
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Post by Davor on Jul 1, 2013 23:03:17 GMT
Davor I think changing your attitude from we don't get it to we don't need it would do your game some good. Nids are awesome and IMO better and more versatile than they were in 6th edition, sure genestealers got nerfed but who needs em. Tyrants are twice as viable as they were before biomancy, so are tervigons. Vehicles got crushed with the addition of hull points, this nerfed every army EXCEPT nids. I have a feeling you are still trying to run a 5th edition army when what you should really do is adapt and evolve, it is the tyranid way. Well said. I don't play so I am not trying to run a 5th edition army. When I did play, I played very unlike how I am suppose to play. One reason why I don't like allies, is not that we get them, but it's other people not taking their weaknesses, and filling them up with another codex. But I am slowly coming back to 40K, and sticking with Nids, (just finishing my sons Necron army, and my old army of DA but Nids seem to get in the way so nothing gets finished LOL) I will take your advice and start thinking we don't need them.
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Post by Kwodd on Jul 2, 2013 2:07:08 GMT
Davor I think changing your attitude from we don't get it to we don't need it would do your game some good. Nids are awesome and IMO better and more versatile than they were in 6th edition, sure genestealers got nerfed but who needs em. Tyrants are twice as viable as they were before biomancy, so are tervigons. Vehicles got crushed with the addition of hull points, this nerfed every army EXCEPT nids. I have a feeling you are still trying to run a 5th edition army when what you should really do is adapt and evolve, it is the tyranid way. Well said. I don't play so I am not trying to run a 5th edition army. When I did play, I played very unlike how I am suppose to play. One reason why I don't like allies, is not that we get them, but it's other people not taking their weaknesses, and filling them up with another codex. But I am slowly coming back to 40K, and sticking with Nids, (just finishing my sons Necron army, and my old army of DA but Nids seem to get in the way so nothing gets finished LOL) I will take your advice and start thinking we don't need them. Great to hear your son is into it, my 2nd son was born on the 26th and I can't wait for his older brother to have the mental capacity to play. He's 2 1/2, I have about 25k points of orks to get him started, hopefully he likes em. 6th is really great and I think you'd dig it once you got a bit more familiar with it. How old is your boy and when did you start him playing? I think 40k is a great family game and have even got my wife in on a few matches.
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