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Post by WestRider on Apr 26, 2013 16:36:16 GMT
^ That would work for MC's, but not for wargear which enhances shooting in the "shooting phase". There is still a difference between a shooting attack and a shooting phase. Except that, as I've repeatedly pointed out, the Rules for MCs also only enhance their shooting "in the Shooting Phase". There is almost no difference in the wording for MCs and Multi-Trackers.
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Post by warfrogger on Apr 26, 2013 17:16:04 GMT
Except that, as I've repeatedly pointed out, the Rules for MCs also only enhance their shooting "in the Shooting Phase". There is almost no difference in the wording for MCs and Multi-Trackers. Exact same thing I pointed out on page one and was shot down. Gonna give some page numbers and paraphrased rules to try to explain my standing on either both work or neither work. Page 51 BRB - More then one weapon If a model has more then one weapon it bus choose which one to shoot and cannot shoot both in the same shooting phase. As we know if there all models follow the Infantry rule set unless an amendment is present in the Unit Types section. A monstrous creature would therfore normally have too choose only 1 of its weapons to shoot. However it does have an amendment: Page 48 BRB - Monstrous Creature They can fire up to two of there weapons each shooting phaseSo although they normally have to choose only 1 weapon to shoot when they shoot in a shooting phase they can choose 2. Crisis Suits are Infantry (jet pack). So they are subject to the "More then One Weapon" rule. However their have a wargear that alters this. Page 69 Tau 6th Codex - If a model has a multi-tracker it can fire and addition weapon each shooting phaseSo although they normally have to choose only 1 weapon to shoot when they shoot in a shooting phase they can shoot 1+1 additional. Due to exact same wording in both the monstrous creatures section and the multi-tracker wargear either they both work for over watch or neither work for over watch (i am still unsure which it is) They both grant an amendment to the "More Then One Weapon" rule when the model is in a shooting phase.
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Post by nurglitch on Apr 26, 2013 17:35:09 GMT
No, the rules for Monstrous Creatures set the basis for their normal shooting, and the difference between the rules for Monstrous Creatures, the unit type, and Multi-Trackers, the wargear, are significantly different.
An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack, albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase. So an Infantry model can fire 1 weapon in a normal shooting attack, during the Shooting phase, and hence can fire 1 weapon in overwatch, during the Assault phase. Think of this 'normal shooting' attack in the Shooting phase as the base number of attacks, kind of like the Attack characteristic. Infantry always have 1. This normal shooting attack equals the overwatch attack.
The Multi-Tracker is a piece of wargear that allows an Infantry model to fire an additional weapon in the Shooting Phase. Infantry with a Multi-Tracker can fire 1 weapon for their normal shooting attack, and +1 weapon in the Shooting phase in addition to their normal shooting attack. Since Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack, and the weapon enabled by the Multi-tracker is in addition to this normal shooting attacke and its scope is the Shooting phase, you don't get to use the Multi-Tracker in the Assault phase.
Monstrous Creatures are a unit type, and they can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase. Those are their normal shooting attacks.
Think of it like the difference between an A1 model gaining an attack for charging in the Assault phase, and an A2 model, if it helps avoid the feeling of splitting hairs. The Monstrous Creatures always have 2, as that's their base, and the Multi-Tracker Infantry have 1+1.
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Post by Psychichobo on Apr 26, 2013 17:46:03 GMT
Nurglitch, it's not about the concept though, it's about RAW. RAW is specifically stating that Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two weapons each shooting phase. That is very specific terminology, and though what you're saying is probably how it was intended, sadly the literal case is that the rules are explicitly stating that MC's can fire up to two weapons in the shooting phase - and Overwatch is not in that phase.
No matter how you try to perceive it, you can't really get around that one particular sentence in the Monstrous Creature rules.
It's interesting that it's not come up before, but then I suppose it's one of those things you never really notice. Hopefully it might come up in Tournaments with the new Tau dex potentially bringing it to light, and get FAQ'd in our favour. But you never know - maybe GW didn't want MC's to fire two guns during overwatch as it's too difficult to accurately aim two weapons (which doesn't make much sense to me, but it's possible).
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Post by nurglitch on Apr 26, 2013 18:50:12 GMT
Psychichobo:
RAW/RAI nonsense aside:
"Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless specifically stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale, found between pages 10 and 31. These are all the rules you'll need for your average Infantry model.
"The advanced rules that apply to a unit are indicated in the entry for the unit in their relevant Warhammer 40,000 codex.
"Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules." (General Principles, Basic Versus Advanced, p.7)
"Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase." (More Than One Weapon, p.51)
"Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase..." (Shooting, Monstrous Creatures, p.48).
"An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on." (Resolve Overwatch, p.21)
So I agree, there is no getting around it: A Monstrous Creature can fire two weapons during an Overwatch attack.
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Post by gigasnail on Apr 26, 2013 19:05:40 GMT
i have to go w/ nurglitch on this one.
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Post by warfrogger on Apr 26, 2013 19:13:18 GMT
Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless specifically stated otherwise.
For a rule to override another it must be specificity stated
Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase
This is a general rule each model has to follow unless stated otherwise
Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each Shooting phase...;
This says a MC can shoot 2 weapons in the shooting phase. It allows it to ignore the "more then one weapon" in the shooting phase. It does not say anything along the lines of a MC always shoots 2 weapons when it shoots.
An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on.
It does not say that it counts as a shooting in the shooting phase. It actually specifies that it happens in the assault phase not the shooting phase. Since MC can only ignore "more then one weapon" in the shooting phase RAW they should not be able to overwatch with 2 weapons in the assault phase.
If RAI was that they can overwatch with 2 weapons, then by the fact they have identical wording multi-trackers would work on overwatch too.
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Post by Psychichobo on Apr 27, 2013 22:39:12 GMT
So essentially it comes down to two things:
a): The '... and so on' reference from page 21.
b): The wording of the Multi-tracker.
Now, though I'm wary about what the 'and so on' bit entails, I will concede on a point I'm not sure anyone else mentioned: There are FAQ rulings that are almost unrelated to anything in the rulebook.
The main one I'm thinking of is the FAQ restriction on Nids using emplaced weapons. There is NO factor in the Big Rule Book that this ruling is based on - it's pretty much an additional 'No' for no discernible reason.
This does begin to mess with any 'If it works for X it works for Y' arguments. Going from that factor, then you can separate the Multi-tracker rule from the MC rule. Out of curiosity, where does it state that the multi-tracker doesn't provide two shots in Overwatch?
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Post by Hive Bahamut on Apr 28, 2013 12:06:47 GMT
My book says EACH phase as well. That throws not allowed in the assault phase out the window doesn't it? Advance rule being two guns EACH phase vs. The regular restriction of one like described before. Is my book wrong?
Multi-tracker on the other hand I don't have access too..
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Post by Sensei on Apr 29, 2013 14:59:36 GMT
I don't have the tau codex and don't know exactly what is written for the multi tracker codex entry.
However, I'm pretty sure Nurglitch has it right. The fact that overwatch is resolved as a normal shooting attack (in the enemy's assault phase etc, etc) means MCs get to fire two weapons. The rules for MCs supercede the basic rules for infantry and are stated to be the basic rules for MCs. Therefore an MC "normal shooting attack" consists of two weapons. Normally. No additions. No bonuses. No special abilities. The normal attack includes two weapons. Period.
The multi tracker adds to the normal attack. Normally (ie. without the multitracker) the unit fires a single weapon. With the multi tracker they can fire an additional one. But that is not the normal attack for this unit. Therefore, in overwatch it resolves its shooting as per normal - without the additional weapon.
There is never an instance where it is not a normal attack for an MC to fire two weapons (unless it only has one ranged weapon, which negates the argument for firing two weapons altogether). Conversely, a unit with the multi tracker available as a peice of wargear will never have an instance where firing more than one weapon is a normal attack.
The whole "overwatch is resolved as a normal shooting attack" is pretty point blank clear to me.
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Post by t⊗theark on Apr 29, 2013 15:54:26 GMT
Out of curiosity, where does it state that the multi-tracker doesn't provide two shots in Overwatch? It is contentious: the multitracker allows a model to fire and extra weapon during the shooting phase. Overwatch is in the assault phase.
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Post by WestRider on Apr 29, 2013 16:41:44 GMT
I don't have the tau codex and don't know exactly what is written for the multi tracker codex entry. However, I'm pretty sure Nurglitch has it right. The fact that overwatch is resolved as a normal shooting attack (in the enemy's assault phase etc, etc) means MCs get to fire two weapons. The rules for MCs supercede the basic rules for infantry and are stated to be the basic rules for MCs. Therefore an MC "normal shooting attack" consists of two weapons. Normally. No additions. No bonuses. No special abilities. The normal attack includes two weapons. Period. The multi tracker adds to the normal attack. Normally (ie. without the multitracker) the unit fires a single weapon. With the multi tracker they can fire an additional one. But that is not the normal attack for this unit. Therefore, in overwatch it resolves its shooting as per normal - without the additional weapon. There is never an instance where it is not a normal attack for an MC to fire two weapons (unless it only has one ranged weapon, which negates the argument for firing two weapons altogether). Conversely, a unit with the multi tracker available as a peice of wargear will never have an instance where firing more than one weapon is a normal attack. The whole "overwatch is resolved as a normal shooting attack" is pretty point blank clear to me. Except that it is never stated that firing two Weapons is "a normal shooting attack" for MCs. What is stated is that they get to fire two Weapons " in the shooting phase." Overwatch is not in the shooting phase, so that doesn't apply.
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Post by coredump on Apr 29, 2013 18:19:42 GMT
And therin lies the rub:
What, exactly, is a "normal shooting attack"?
The rules for Witchfire, MCs, Crises suits, Dreadnaughts all have rules dealing with "in the shooting phase". So which ones count, and which ones don't?
MCs always can shoot two weapons in the shooting phase, but so can all crises suits, and all dreadnaughts. And all Zoans can shoot witchfire in the shooting phase, that is 'normal' for all of them.
Personally, I would think all of them would apply as 'normal'. But GW already nixed the witchfire during overwatch, so not all of them. Of course, is that part of a pattern, or just meant to be specific to witchfire.
Nurglitch's proposal is the one that 'feels' right to me, but it is the one I can find the least rules support for. It is the least consistent applying what is 'normal'.
Westrider's is the one that seems to be the least likely, but it is the one with the most RAW rules support for. But do we really think GW meant for MCs and dreadnaughts to only get to shoot one gun for Overwatch?
But again, all of these are based on an *interpretation* of what counts as a 'normal' shooting attack. Normal for that specific model? Normal for the vanilla version of that model? Normal for the base unit type? Normal for the most basic 40K unit?
And lets expand this, Tau vehicles can get overwatch. What is 'normal shooting' for a vehicle? How many shots? Does last turns movement affect it? Rules say 'that turns movement phase'....
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Post by nurglitch on Apr 29, 2013 18:30:01 GMT
It's worth citing the Multi-Tracker rule: " A model with a multi-tracker can fire an additional weapon in each Shooting phase." (Multi-Tracker, Support Systems, Codex: Tau Empire, p.69) Now there's apparently precedent for weapons being specified as being limited to the shooting phase, or at least something that can be used instead of a weapon: Witchfire psychic powers. Running can also be used instead of a weapon, but nobody is claiming a Monstrous Creature can run twice (yet). To quote: " Witchfire powers aer [sic] manifested during the Psyker's Shooting phase instead of firing a weapon." (Witchfire, Types of Psychic Powers, Psykers, p.69) The FAQ elaborates on this: " Q: Can you use a witchfire power when resolving Overwatch? A: No." (Rulebook FAQ p.5) The context being: " Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one Shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase." (More Than One Weapon, p.51) Out of context, the conclusion following an assumption of parallelism in the text would be that apparently models can only fire their weapons in the Shooting phase, and Overwatch is impossible. The broader context is, of course, the fact that pages 10-31 of the Rulebook cover the basic rules, including the rules for shooting, according to the Basic versus Advanced rule on p.7. So when the Resolve Overwatch rule says that: " An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on." (Resolve Overwatch, p.21) It means that you resolve the Overwatch attack just as you would in the Shooting phase, with the noted exceptions. Now, Infantry can fire one weapon in the Shooting phase, according to the More Than One Weapon rule on p.51. Monstrous Creatures can fire two weapons in the Shooting phase, according to the Monstrous Creature rules on p.48. So either: (1) The Multi-Tracker overrides the normal shooting rules for both Infantry and Monstrous Creatures and allow both to fire an additional weapon in the Shooting phase, and hence in the Assault phase as part of an Overwatch attack, Or: (2) The Multi-Tracker is an addition to the normal shooting rules, and is therefore limited to allowing equipped models to fire an additional weapon in the Shooting phase. I'm inclined towards #2 because Multi-Trackers are wargear, specify an addition to the basic case rather than a revaluation of the basic case (1+1 instead of 2), and don't entail the bizarre implication that Infantry can only use their normal shooting attack in the specified Shooting phase. I'm also extremely prejudiced in favour of #2.
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Post by WestRider on Apr 30, 2013 0:27:49 GMT
I really think you're reading too much into the difference between "can fire two Weapons" and "can fire an additional Weapon". I don't see any way that subtle of a distinction can override the explicit limiting of both to a single Phase.
I don't have more than circumstantial evidence, but I suspect that the reason for the different wording on Multi-Trackers was that at some point in playtesting, the Riptide had 3 guns and a Multi-Tracker. If it had been worded "can fire two Weapons", it wouldn't have done anything there. Wouldn't be the first time playtest wordings that had been rendered irrelevant had made it into the published Dex.
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