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Post by warfrogger on Apr 25, 2013 21:39:17 GMT
So I'd go for something that's technically CC even though it's actually a sniper attack Giving Tyranid Shrikes a pseudo-vector strike that has precision hits and can use their rending claws if they have them. Its more fitting then a sniper gaunt as a warrior would have the cunning to pick out threats.
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Post by gman25639 on Apr 25, 2013 22:00:07 GMT
How about something like; for evrey lictor brood in your army you may include 1 brood of sniper gaunts as a retinue, the lictor(s) may join this unit exactly as if it were an independent character, if you do this, the gaunts may arrive from reserve with the lictor(s) following the normal rules for chameleonic skin. Sounds fluffy no?
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Post by scrotatohead on Apr 25, 2013 22:02:53 GMT
Again i say, nids are very adaptable, so if they needed a sniper, they would make one. I'm sorry but that isn't a very good argument, simply because it can be used to allow anything and everything; Nids are very adaptable, if they needed a super tough, fast unit to shelter things until they could get close to assault, they'd make one. And presto, you have a tyranid landraider. How about a devastator squad? with lascannon equivalents? Surely the hive mind could evolve some kind of organic laser. Or terminator equivalents? It'd make sense that they'd evolve heavily armoured shock troops, warriors with extra thick armour or something. Similar can be said for orks, they're really good at scavenging imperial technology, where's the ork leman russes, or basilisks, or predators? at least those used to exist, and fit into the general orkish theme. I'm not trying to be negative, but there needs to be a better argument for a unit than "because I can". That's a very good argument Grarik. What keeps IG and SM from developing new and better weapons? Fluff wise they're going backwards with their technology. Sure Tyranids could develop ever more complex creatures, but why should they when it's much easier to mass produce simple organisms that can be directed by a fewer number of more complex organisms and ultimately be recycled again and again. Arguably, the more complex you make things the more things can go wrong. And I imagine the last thing the hive mind wants is a generation of 'gants that rise above animal/insect level and become self aware.
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Post by WestRider on Apr 25, 2013 23:20:34 GMT
That's a very good argument Grarik. What keeps IG and SM from developing new and better weapons? Fluff wise they're going backwards with their technology. Actually, the Imperium is advancing its technology, just very, very slowly. That's why Heresy era Units (i.e. CSM) don't have access to things like Land Speeders, Razorbacks, alternate Land Raiders, or man-portable Thunder Hammers, Plasma Cannon, or MultiMeltas. Those were developed over the 10,000 years since the Heresy. But that progress moves very, very slowly, since the Imperium is an extraordinarily hide-bound and conservative institution, which treats Technology as a matter of Religious Doctrine. On the main topic, I like the idea of letting Sky-Slashers or Shrikes make Fly-by Attacks. I was also thinking maybe make it a Synapse Override for the SwarmLord. Instead of his normal ability to provide a special Rule to a nearby Unit for the Turn, he grants a nearby Unit the ability to make Precision Shots for the next Shooting Phase.
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Post by grarik on Apr 25, 2013 23:24:13 GMT
How about something like; for evrey lictor brood in your army you may include 1 brood of sniper gaunts as a retinue, the lictor(s) may join this unit exactly as if it were an independent character, if you do this, the gaunts may arrive from reserve with the lictor(s) following the normal rules for chameleonic skin. Sounds fluffy no? No, it doesn't. Lictors are supposed to be solitary silent killers, maybe working in tandem with other lictors. Having a unit of gaunts joining them doesn't fit that fluff. If you really must include sniper rifle style weapons in a tyranid army, gaunts are not the answer. As I said before, gaunts are bestial, instinctive creatures in fluff. They wouldn't nave the ability to work as snipers. a "sniper" type weapon, if they existed in a tyranid army, would either be on a new kind of creature, or given to warriors. Either way it'd need to be on a synapse creature, or a creature like genestealers who have humanlike intelligence, and the ability to act independently of the hive mind.
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Post by gman25639 on Apr 25, 2013 23:30:52 GMT
That's actually what I'd describe Sniper-Gaunts to be like. Able to function independently to a certain degree, but ultimately still under the Hive Mind's control.
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Post by coredump on Apr 25, 2013 23:37:21 GMT
Again i say, nids are very adaptable, so if they needed a sniper, they would make one. Well, they could also use some transports, perhaps with very strong armor. ANd they could use some carnifexes with much higher wounds and toughness. And maybe some gaunts with better armor saves. And lascannons, and flyers (not FMC), and maybe we just take everything in the other codices and just make them look different....
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Post by grarik on Apr 25, 2013 23:58:38 GMT
That's actually what I'd describe Sniper-Gaunts to be like. Able to function independently to a certain degree, but ultimately still under the Hive Mind's control. But that's majorly against how gaunts are supposed to work, fluffwise they're meant to head towards the opponent, die, and either make the opponent waste ammo or swarm over the opponent with weight of numbers. They're essentially mindless, and need the hive mind controlling them to function at a greater than instinctive level. The kind of unit you're suggesting would need to be another type of creature entirely, able to act beyond simply instinctive response, to function independently of the hive mind. Just saying that they're "super smart" gaunts is lazy. I'm still against sniper rifles in tyranid armies, I feel lictors should be improved to be close combat snipers, popping out of the shadows to slaughter characters before dissapearing again, rather than have weapons that go against how nids traditionally work shoehorned in. But if you must design a sniper unit, there's better ways to do it.
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Post by coredump on Apr 26, 2013 0:34:15 GMT
For a Nid type Sniper effect, let the Lictor assault out of reserve against any *model* it can get into base contact with. Basically, it can challenge any model it is in base contact with, and that model may not decline.
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Post by grarik on Apr 26, 2013 1:58:41 GMT
For a Nid type Sniper effect, let the Lictor assault out of reserve against any *model* it can get into base contact with. Basically, it can challenge any model it is in base contact with, and that model may not decline. This is what a tyranid sniper would be like, great suggestion coredump! Lictors should be the best ambush assassins in the game, much more niddy than snipers
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Post by gman25639 on Apr 26, 2013 2:58:12 GMT
Actually, if you do a little digging, you find that the Tyranids used have a transport creature, the Malefactor. It was described as having sphincters other nids could enter through into transport sacs, sacs and it would move up the battlefield, unload them, and charge into combat. It commonly carried Genestealers but was capable of carrying most any other small tyranid unit.
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Post by t⊗theark on Apr 26, 2013 3:04:23 GMT
The Tyranid race as a whole is VERY adaptable, the Genestealer is actually rather intelligent and adaptive to circumstances, so is it really that far-fetched to develop a Gaunt with a more adaptive mental process capable of picking out individual targets? It could be a slight tweak in their base instincts, they identify the greatest threat (e.g. a captain as opposed to just a scout marine) and attempt to eliminate from range. This is essentially just a further extension of Gaunts' instinct towards self-preservation. Sure, in fact why not do away with the synapse web? Why not forgo trying to out do the enemy in numbers and biological tech for things that can think. Actually, lets pour all the resouces into an army of hivetyrants. Also, genestealers aren't gaunts, Genestealers are the combination of human and tyranids which scourt ahead of hivefleets loosing connection with the hivemind for years and even generations. You're making a gaunt a sniper and gaunst aren't the best anything. Termigants aren't the best infantry, gargoyles aren't the best jump troop, hormagaunst aren't the best combat specialists so why do our snipers (which I don't find that fluffer to begin with seeing we have lictors) need to be such great snipers? They're gaunts! Actually, if you do a little digging, you find that the Tyranids used have a transport creature, the Malefactor. It was described as having sphincters other nids could enter through into transport sacs, sacs and it would move up the battlefield, unload them, and charge into combat. It commonly carried Genestealers but was capable of carrying most any other small tyranid unit. Ugh, don't ever mention the boxing glove slug again.
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Post by gman25639 on Apr 26, 2013 3:07:36 GMT
Think of my Sniper-Gaunts this way: An enemy force is dug in to a point where the swarms simply get slaughtered on the enemy bastions, and their position is too locked up to allow Lictors to get in. So, the Hive Mind creates the Sniper-Gaunt. A group of them take up a forward position and, having pre-identified the enemy commander, neutralize him throwing the entire enemy force into disarray, and continue to pick off targets as the swarm charges again, the confused and leaderless enemy are slaughtered before the onslaught. Tyranid victory with a minimal expenditure of biomass. That is why I made them Gaunts, they are easy for the Hive Mind to spawn, and if they die, it was not as big of a waste as a Lictor brood being killed. Now tell me with a straight face that is not "niddish" enough.
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Post by gman25639 on Apr 26, 2013 3:11:26 GMT
Boxing glove slug?! Lol I thought it seemed cool, and granted all it would meed is updated rules and a better model to match current range. And actually, if you look really deep into the fluff, "purestrain" Genestealers that have not yet had a chance to disperse from the Hive Fleet are very similar to Gaunts in appearance.
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Post by t⊗theark on Apr 26, 2013 3:26:41 GMT
So, swarms are getting slaughtered when approaching this position but not this particular brood? If it is so airtight that lictors or genestealers can't sneak in, what would make you think that priority targets aren't behind walls either? Bastions are pretty solid, windowless boxes. I don't think a bullet will be infiltrating its way in there very easily anyway.
Also, if they have a position that's just decimating swarms, spear head it with a wave of carnifexes, that's the cop out move used in the codex twice or thrice. They could bombard the area with biovores if it is more open area, gargoyles and harpies lead by a hivetyrant attack from the sky or send raveners, ripper swarms, and mawlocs to attack from below. Furthermore, this problem you've described is very much like the Ghorala Swarm faced against the Ork Empire of Octarius, where they drew them out!
Well, if you look deep into the fluff, the first genesteakers encountered were tentically things from the moons of Ymgarl.
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