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Post by coredump on Apr 15, 2013 17:48:09 GMT
I play mine as a prime and i give him regen, can sometimes be a waste but i have seen him recover from 1 wound to all six in one round of regen, which really scares the socks of all opponents after that. It should, that is almost 1:8000 chance. And that doesn't even take into account the odds of having exactly 1 wound left.
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Post by coredump on Apr 15, 2013 17:59:31 GMT
Yeah, use whatever pluralisation you like, I'm just saying, given the etymology of the word, the "most proper" plural as it were is Carnifex. You might want to check into that a bit more.... with just one search I found a number of 'informed' sites that had a selection of assertions. the most common being carnifexes. And yes, that was based on the etymology of the word.
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Post by coredump on Apr 15, 2013 18:13:09 GMT
and sometimes you can use it for putting a unit of 30 Termagants in your opponent's backfield where they can go to ground. Thats assuming the trygon comes in on turn 2 and Gaunts on turn 3+ (22% chance) Or Trygon on 3 and gaunts on 4 (2.5% chance) And assuming you are willing to have the 30 guants walk on your own board edge in the other 75% of the time
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Post by blindmage on Apr 15, 2013 19:44:24 GMT
Carifexes are easier to get cover (and transport the models) which can be a huge plus for using one depending on what your local terrain is like, as well as meta. It's scarily easy to give 'fexes the 5+ cover save now. having a brood of 3 vanilla 'fexes bearing down on you isn;t always something you can deal with easily, especially if the rest of the list is in you face as well...and you're not playing an imperial list.
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Post by nurglitch on Apr 15, 2013 19:55:28 GMT
Trygons are easy enough to transport if you magnetize them. Mine break down into three pieces for transport.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2013 5:55:44 GMT
and sometimes you can use it for putting a unit of 30 Termagants in your opponent's backfield where they can go to ground. Thats assuming the trygon comes in on turn 2 and Gaunts on turn 3+ (22% chance) Or Trygon on 3 and gaunts on 4 (2.5% chance) And assuming you are willing to have the 30 guants walk on your own board edge in the other 75% of the time ^qft It's a gamble not worth taking unless you have an ADL w/Comm, which would still be a massive point sink when you could have just Podded the Gants.
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Post by nurglitch on Apr 17, 2013 17:46:32 GMT
60mm:
The curious thing is that taking any re-roll bonuses like Alien Cunning, Hive Commander, or the makes it considerably less likely that you'll be able to benefit from the side effect of Subterranean Assault. Opting for a Strategy Trait for your Warlord might add some leverage, but it's 1/6 to the exclusion of all the Personal Traits that obviously benefit Tyranid Warlords.
But, like I said, sometimes you can do this. It just so happens that this sometimes doesn't happen very much. My point was that the main benefit of Subterranean Assault was avoiding Mishaps, just like the Transport Spore both helps the model avoid a Mishap, and has an additional effect. In the case of the Mycetic Spore, however, the additional effect covers the model's core role rather than adding a decorative addition for building a narrative.
Now, if you really want to benefit from the Subterranean Assault, you are going to need to hold back a Tyranid infantry unit that can be as useful walking onto the board from your home edge as from the Subterranean Assault marker. Betting strictly on the Subterranean Assault strategy to work is unwise, just like betting strictly on any single strategy is unwise; good Tyranid armies need to be able to swap roles and tactics among units, to be flexible, as well as to perform those tactics reliably. Consider, for example, the utility in holding back a brood of Termagants in reserve. On one hand they won't be able to screen friendly units, and provide overwatch fodder, but on the other hand they'll be alive to capture objectives.
There are four outcomes here: (1) The Termagant brood and the Trygon arrive on turn 2, (2) The Termagant brood and the Trygon arrive on turn 3, (3) the Termagant brood arrives on turn 2, and the Trygon on turn 3, and (4) the Termagant brood arrives on turn 3, and the Trygon arrives on turn 2. In the event of outcomes 1-3, the result is the same: Whatever might have been holding your deployment objectives can move up on turn 2. Maybe you were clever and positioned your objectives 6" in front of your deployment zone, so that the unit can advance on turn 1 and you can make the choice to advance again on turn 2 after your reserves are settled with outcome 1-3 or 4. Warriors with Barbed Stranglers and Venom Cannons are handy for this because they can either advance, or sit back and hold. Or they can hang out nearby as a Spawned Termagant brood gets the job. Like I said, a good army gives you the ability to play multiple strategies depending on circumstances. Such armies mix redundancy, flexibility, and synergy to optimize.
So let's consider the points you have sunk when you could have put the unit in a Mycetic Spore (and so 'spoored' the brood). The Mycetic Spore is an additional 40 potatoes. You can deploy them on your backfield objectives, or away from where the Trygon deployed. Neither version of the unit can move or assault in the turn they arrive. You can spend the difference in points on an additional 8 Termagants, or 4 if you're arming them with Devourers. There's no worries about spending on Communication Relays because, as I have discussed, that's counter-productive, so we're saving an additional 20 potatoes for 4 or 2 more Termagants, again based on armament. Both versions benefit from not starting the game sitting in front of enemy guns, and therefore getting the first shot if they are able. The Subterranean Assault version has the additional option of forgoing reserves to start the game on the board, which is definitely a good thing if we consider again the notion that being able to adapt to circumstances, all else being equal, is a good thing. The existence of Masters of the Fleet should be considered in any reserve-heavy strategy. The Subterranean Assault version also saves the army from giving away an easy point in the form of the Mycetic Spore in Purge the Xenos missions, but likewise loses the benefit of the Mycetic Spore's shooting, objective-contesting, and incoming-fire-dilution.
So, as always, the question is not whether one particular version is better than another, but what version synergizes best with what other units a strategy might require; each version fits into a different set of armies. And, naturally, the version designed to take advantage of the Subterranean Assault opportunity doesn't require Mycetic Spore models, as an aesthetic benefit. I'd suggest that it depends on what you want as Heavy Support: If you're going to drop Mycetic Spores containing Carnifex broods armed with Brainworm Devourers, then you'll wan the Termagants in Mycetic Spores, get those reserve bonuses, and whatever else. If you're going to bring Trygons to bear, then upgrading one or two to a Prime and bringing a couple of broods of Warriors, Termagants, and Tervigons to hold the backfield is in order.
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Post by coredump on Apr 17, 2013 18:44:05 GMT
60mm: The curious thing is that taking any re-roll bonuses like Alien Cunning, Hive Commander, or the makes it considerably less likely that you'll be able to benefit from the side effect of Subterranean Assault. There's no worries about spending on Communication Relays because, as I have discussed, that's counter-productive, so we're saving an additional 20 potatoes for 4 or 2 more Termagants, again based on armament. I think you are missing the point 60mm was making. While you are right that HC makes it less likely for the tunnel to be used, the Comm Relay makes it *more* likely you can pull it off. Without the Comm relay, the chance of a Turn2 Trygon and Turn 3+ brood is 22% *With* the Comm relay, the chance jumps to 49% When you throw in the other permutations, you are more likely to be using the tunnel than to not use the tunnel. If you have two units that can use it, the chance of success is almost 85% I'm pretty sure that is what 60mm was talking about.
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Post by nurglitch on Apr 17, 2013 18:54:54 GMT
My mistake. For some reason (i.e.: not double-checking the rulebook first) I was convinced that it was a bonus to reserve rolls, rather than a re-roll. Still worth less than 2-4 Termagants, considering my point was about capitalizing on contingencies rather than depending on them.
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Post by rpricew on Apr 17, 2013 20:17:15 GMT
Simple answer really. A lot of people had 3-6 or more Carnifexes. Also GW made the Trygon mini. So how do you get people to stop using their carifexes (or is it fexes, or carnifecies, or fecies? eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeek.), and buy the new Trygon minis? Plural of Carnifex is Carnifex. Carnifices is what the Google Dictionary said...
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Post by nurglitch on Apr 17, 2013 20:46:27 GMT
I like to say "Carnifexen" because the plural of "ox" in English is "oxen."
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Post by vecuu on Apr 18, 2013 16:18:03 GMT
Don't ever expect Subterannean Assault to work out, it's a very poorly implelemented special rule that is best ignored. I'm guessing they mean the reduction when scattering onto models or impassable terrain, rather than the the tunnel, no one uses the tunnel. Good point, I concede the victory to you, Carnifexes it is. Ugh, I will never refer to more than one Carnifex as Carnifexes. That just feels weird rolling off the tongue. Carnifex or Carnifexen make much more sense, and I usually prefer the latter.
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Post by gman25639 on Apr 22, 2013 18:38:08 GMT
If I had to pik between the 2, I'd say Carnifex. you can bring them in grouos of 3 (granted they all have to have same options), allowing for up to 9 carnifexes in your army, as opposed to just 3 trygons. another thing you can do is carnifex with 2x scytal, adrenal glands, toxin sacs, and bio-plasma. put it in a spore pod and start blowing stuff apart, who can deny the effectiveness of a screamer killer behind enemy lines?
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Post by brianb9999 on Apr 22, 2013 22:35:26 GMT
^^except that is waaay more points than just deep-striking a vanilla trygon behind enemy lines, and still less effective in combat. Podded dakkafexes are nice, but I haven't come up with any other way to run the Carnifex. It needs some serious fixing and point reduction.
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Post by gman25639 on Apr 23, 2013 2:24:30 GMT
I currently only own 1 Carnifex. I give him crushing claws and barbed strangler. He blasts apart infantry with it, creating an opening through which he can charge and take out a vehicle or 2. My next one ill do screamer killer.
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