ammohog
Genestealer
Cheese? what cheese? i play nids
Posts: 68
|
Post by ammohog on Apr 4, 2013 0:41:02 GMT
To further clarify the match the final game against the gk player was kill points and we were playing on a 4x4 table, I did tell him about the swarmlord and even handed him my codex so he knew what bone sabers did and what lash whips would do to his init. He even went as far as accusing me of cheating based on an obscure rule which involves the creation of the death star. According to the rule book the prime can only join the swarmlord while the tyrant guard is alive. After the charge he made my tyrant guards had died leaving only the swarmlord and prime remaining. Not that it mattered much for the remaining 2 turns of the game but the prime and swarmlord remained as a unit. I wasn't aware that the death star is forced to disband since an IC can't join a MC. Small point really as his remaining two units went down to charges soon after, the judge ruled in my favor on the rule as it wasn't intentional. The Swarmlord joined the Guard legally. The Prime joined the Guard legally. Guard all die. The Prime and Swarmlord are still a unit as they are already joined. If they change their status and separate, then they can no longer join back together. But no rules were broken here. I agree with you but the rulebook doesn't make that determination or if it does please direct me to the page
|
|
|
Post by zephoid on Apr 4, 2013 0:48:50 GMT
A unit's composition is not checked at all times. The rule about joining is only enforced when a unit attempts to join. In this case, the unit was already joined, which is legal.
Seriously, the SL is far from overpowered. Just because a GK player had no idea what he was doing does not mean its unbalanced. Yes, the swarmlord rocks melee, but thats all he does. Hes slow, has very little synergy, and is incredibly expensive. GK players are just used to having the best of the best in almost every category and, when they finally meet something they cant kill, well..... you have seen the result. Just agree not to use the SL if he agrees not to use psycannons or psyrifles. See how much he complains when his strong points are taken away.
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on Apr 4, 2013 1:43:20 GMT
lol, i didn't see this thread when i made my replies to the OP in the lists thread. i don't have much constructive to add, but you can let your FLGS know i'm pointing and laughing at them. no invul save from shooting, dies in two rounds of shooting from one unit of longfangs (on average, iron arm/endurance aside, in which case it'll likely take 3 turns), with no shooting attack of its own, and it's banned. that's...seriously bad handling by the tourney organizer.
and yeah, the boys have it correct as far as the prime joining your deathstar.
|
|
ammohog
Genestealer
Cheese? what cheese? i play nids
Posts: 68
|
Post by ammohog on Apr 4, 2013 2:02:21 GMT
lol, i didn't see this thread when i made my replies to the OP in the lists thread. i don't have much constructive to add, but you can let your FLGS know i'm pointing and laughing at them. no invul save from shooting, dies in two rounds of shooting from one unit of longfangs (on average, iron arm/endurance aside, in which case it'll likely take 3 turns), with no shooting attack of its own, and it's banned. that's...seriously bad handling by the tourney organizer. and yeah, the boys have it correct as far as the prime joining your deathstar. In that particular game the gk player didn't have a ton of low ap shooting in fact other than the psycannon all he had was that dred that carries the tl auto cannons the rest was bolter/storm bolter and he chose to shoot at my guants and gargoyles thinking his assault was gonna take out the HQ....should a seen the look on his face when the swarmlord killed his dredknight on the first of 4 wounds inflicted the prime challenged the justicar and killed him the brotherhood champ took a perils from shadow evaporating him self and one of the guards got two rends on the remaining termies lol ....the dude freaked
|
|
|
Post by coredump on Apr 4, 2013 2:06:11 GMT
(edit: I typed this a while ago, but never hit Post. So I have been Ninja's like a dozen times..)
Thats okay, he was wrong about that rule anyway.
The Prime is not allowed to *join* the SLord; there is nothing stopping him from staying in the unit after the Guards have died. Once he does leave, however, he can't join the SLord again later.
If fact, if they were still in combat, it is against the rules for him to leave until no longer locked in combat.
Yeah, it sounds like someone picked a couple of units he assumed would/could melee stomp anything in the game; and then got his panties in a twist when it was demonstrated otherwise. The facts are the SLord is arguably the best melee model in the game, and only a couple of other models can even argue the point.
That said, he doesn't have EW, so shame on your opponent for not getting a couple of Force Wounds on the Swarmlord.
PS. Once you are down to only 1 guard (with SLord and Prime) then the entire unit will benefit from Iron Arm (majority T and all that.) Once down to just the Slord and Prime (or SLord and guard), then the unit has majority WS of WS9
|
|
|
Post by coredump on Apr 4, 2013 2:16:35 GMT
I agree with you but the rulebook doesn't make that determination or if it does please direct me to the page You are looking at it wrong. The rules say the Slord can join the unit, the rules say the Prime can join the unit. The rules say the guard can die. Can you (or he, or anyone) show me any rules saying that those two models are not allowed to be in a unit together? Alone or otherwise? I can show a rule saying the Prime can't *join* the SLord, but he didn't (and isn't) In fact, I can show you rules specifically stating the Prime can't leave *any* unit while locked in combat. So the explanation is that he was stupid,and then got upset about it.... okay, that makes sense.
|
|
ammohog
Genestealer
Cheese? what cheese? i play nids
Posts: 68
|
Post by ammohog on Apr 4, 2013 2:40:28 GMT
(edit: I typed this a while ago, but never hit Post. So I have been Ninja's like a dozen times..) Thats okay, he was wrong about that rule anyway. The Prime is not allowed to *join* the SLord; there is nothing stopping him from staying in the unit after the Guards have died. Once he does leave, however, he can't join the SLord again later. If fact, if they were still in combat, it is against the rules for him to leave until no longer locked in combat. Yeah, it sounds like someone picked a couple of units he assumed would/could melee stomp anything in the game; and then got his panties in a twist when it was demonstrated otherwise. The facts are the SLord is arguably the best melee model in the game, and only a couple of other models can even argue the point. That said, he doesn't have EW, so shame on your opponent for not getting a couple of Force Wounds on the Swarmlord. PS. Once you are down to only 1 guard (with SLord and Prime) then the entire unit will benefit from Iron Arm (majority T and all that.) Once down to just the Slord and Prime (or SLord and guard), then the unit has majority WS of WS9 Really I didn't think the majority rule carried over for the psychic powers
|
|
ammohog
Genestealer
Cheese? what cheese? i play nids
Posts: 68
|
Post by ammohog on Apr 4, 2013 2:47:04 GMT
I see your point his rant was based on the rule saying nothing can join a Mac I tried to argue the fact that the slord and prime joined the guards but he just wasn't hearing it and just kept repeating that the guards were gone and the unit disbanded...I'm gonna stand my ground on it next time and maybe bring 3 guards instead of 2 just to make him happy
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on Apr 4, 2013 2:53:05 GMT
the unit doesn't disband automatically (if he insists, make him show you in the rules where it does).
there's no rule that says an IC can't join an MC, the rule states that you can't join a unit that is only ever composed of 1 single model, and uses 'most mostrous creatures' as an example (because most monstrous creatures *are* only single model units). for instance, an IC could never join a tfex, a trygon, or even (lol) a hive tyrant, but can certainly join a carnifex or malanthrope, even if there is only one in the unit, because they can be taken in broods.
the key thing to note is that the prime is not joining the swarmlord, he's joining the tyrant guard unit, which he can do, even if there's only one tguard.
personally i'd have to advise the GK player to grow the hell up, and not play against him until he learns to not cry over loosing a game of toy soldiers due to his own poor decisions both in list construction and strategy.
edited for clarity.
|
|
|
Post by coredump on Apr 4, 2013 3:03:17 GMT
Really I didn't think the majority rule carried over for the psychic powers I'm not sure what you mean, but it doesn't really have to do with the psy power. If you cast Iron Arm, and get a 6, now the SLord is toughness 9, the Prime is toughness 5, and the Guard is toughness 6. When being attacked, your opponent rolls against majority toughness, but the rules say if there is a tie, then the higher number wins. It is a 3 way tie, so he needs to wound against T9. The same logic holds for the WS9 if they are attacking just the SLord and one other model. (So marines - WS4 - need 5's to hit) As noted, he is wrong several ways. -There is no rule saying an IC can't join an MC (Ask him to show you the rule) - There is no rule saying the unit must be disbanded (Ask him to show you the rule) -There *is* a rule saying the Prime can't leave during a combat (show him the rule) -Any time someone 'just wasn't hearing it', but can't present a rule... he is not to be trusted. -There is a rule that the Prime can't join the SLord, but he didn't, and isn't. You are not standing your ground, you are standing on GW's ground, following the *rules* of the game. I recommend against changing your list to 'make him happy', it won't work until you change your list enough to lose. Sure, a SLord/guard/prime unit is pretty hard core for a 750 tourney; but so is a dreadnight and terminators.... If he wants folks to play happy fluffy armies for funsies...maybe he should lead by example. Do not argue with him, it is pointless. Show him the rules, in the book, that support what you are saying. Then ask him to show you the rules, in the book, that support what he is saying. When you can, and he can't, there should not be any arguements.
|
|
ammohog
Genestealer
Cheese? what cheese? i play nids
Posts: 68
|
Post by ammohog on Apr 4, 2013 3:16:00 GMT
You know I was not aware of the majority rule worked like that and that's ammo I will use from now on.....and I agree and was saying the same thing about the dredknight being in the game I had actually played the guy before and witnessed his gk shenanigans first hand and honestly was the reason I added the slord just because I knew I would have to play him and secretly wanted to give him a little of his own medicine as he is the house favorite where I play. I think he will approach my nids with more caution in the future as its a monthly escalation tourney and the next meeting is in two weeks Thanks for the good advice
|
|
|
Post by Raven on Apr 4, 2013 3:27:05 GMT
PS. Once you are down to only 1 guard (with SLord and Prime) then the entire unit will benefit from Iron Arm (majority T and all that.) Once down to just the Slord and Prime (or SLord and guard), then the unit has majority WS of WS9 Actually the entire unit would have WS9 with 1 Guard (WS5), Swarmlord (WS9) and Prime (WS6).
|
|
|
Post by fleetofclaw on Apr 4, 2013 3:28:47 GMT
Whenever people get sadface about getting rolled by the swarmlord in CC I gently remind them that he has a giant SWORD on his head. I guess it's nature's way of saying don't get close to him.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using proboards
|
|
|
Post by jocke01 on Apr 4, 2013 3:43:55 GMT
I need to know 2 things to get why people banned that unit.
1. Was it emphasized to be a friendly tournament and you show up with a 400-500p very though monster unit and the other people got like a balanced list and were not at all prerpeared to face your list?
2. What kind or tournament was it? who was holding it? and how many players?. Because if it was like 7 other players and they got buthurt about your list and then banned it then this is really funny or was it a standard tournament with a serious host because I find it hard he would ban a unit just because som players complained.
|
|
|
Post by gigasnail on Apr 4, 2013 3:46:57 GMT
guy that cried (please do not swear) had a dreadknight and GK terminators so it was my kind of friendly.
|
|