Genestealers upgrades

[coredump]

I used to run stealer shock, even before it was cool.... now nothing.

I may try running commando units, 4-5 stealers plus a Blord. But not even convinced that will work well.

(Yealers are another story,they are money.)

[genestealerdude]

Use what you like!

I love Genestealers and use them regardless (I'm for fluffy lists and for Space Hulk enthusiasts)

Broodlords rock with Ymgarl distraction (I keep codex powers on at least one brood and aim for the enemy warlord) I still think the Broodlord is the new Patriarch thus only one, but I field two (cheeky)!

I play for objectives though and pray to the Hive Mind for anything but "Purge the Alien"

Close Combat got worse but justly so, he who brings a knife to a gunfight is sure to loose (hide in ruins go to ground and nom nom any would be invaders) be sure to precision fire those stupid flamer types though always put a downer on our gribblies!

Happily attack anyone that comes into your territory though (Tervigon with expendables for overwatch charge much needed for this)

PS use anything you have points for, I take them with nowt, but if I have spare points, toxin sacs first, scything talons next, then implant attack in that order, although points are better spent elsewhere

modified due to spelling

[ranmafan]

If I run Stealers, I always make sure the first turn I send the Termagants in and keep the Stealers in cover. Page 28, BRB - units charging an enemy unit already engaged in combat for 1 turn do not suffer the Initiative penalty for charging through difficult terrain (which the enemy will almost always stay in). Once the Stealers touch anyone, they're all dead. xD

[scrotatohead]

+1 for ranmafan. That's a rule I'd completely forgotten about.

[killercroc]

I do feel kind of sad now, with what the new rules did to Genestealers. I use to run an odd army that I didn't see anyone else running, it was pretty much a stealers shock army with Carnifex support, it worked wonders against all types of armies, but now due to lack of assault upon arrival me 50+ stealers aren't having any fun. I've had some luck in a few games, infiltrating in ruins and behind hills, it works, but not super well.

But if you are running stealers I do suggest running rending raveners with them, honestly they do better than stealers now IMO. A bit of quick numbering.

10 Genestealers with Toxin sacs ~ 170 pts. 10 wounds with 5+ save, unit gets 30 attacks on charge, hit on 4+ is about 15 hits, wound on 4+ is about 8 wounds, with re-rolls it's about 11 wounds.

5 Raveners with Rending claws ~ 170 pts. 15 wounds with 5+ save, unit gets 25 attacks on charge, hit on 3+ is about 17 hits, with re-rolls of 1 it's about 20 hits, wounding on 4+ is about 10 wounds.

So, for the most part they're the same but some things I like about Raveners, getting fear on them is easy, givving you +2 attacks on charge, they ignore difficult and dangerous terrain so they can ghost though ruins and attack without being slowed down. Also it takes 3 wounds to kill each ravener, with model manipulation you can put the wounded models in the back so they wont get killed from like, overwatch shots.

But that's just me.

[seanster3000]

I know its already been stated but all I use is TS, the BL, and maybe some synergy from the Swarmlord (giving them preferred enemy). Works even better when I charge first with the Swarlord, my opponent panics and fires overwatch at him, and then charge with my buffed Genestealers. I so miss the days of outflanking and slaughtering a squad on my enemies flank

[cibissum]

Feb 11, 2013 17:10:14 GMT killercroc said:

10 Genestealers with Toxin sacs ~ 170 pts. 10 wounds with 5+ save, unit gets 30 attacks on charge, hit on 4+ is about 15 hits, wound on 4+ is about 8 wounds, with re-rolls it's about 11 wounds.

5 Raveners with Rending claws ~ 170 pts. 15 wounds with 5+ save, unit gets 25 attacks on charge, hit on 3+ is about 17 hits, with re-rolls of 1 it's about 20 hits, wounding on 4+ is about 10 wounds.

Not to be picky, but considering that genestealers have a WS of 6 while raveners only have WS 5, your example is a little flawed. Typically both would hit on 3+ so the stealers should have about 20 hits, which would add a couple more wounds/rends in their favor.

Though I'm a fan of raveners as well so I'm not trying to besmirch them or anything. Just pointing out what I assume is a minor oversight when you were math hammering.

[chuckles]

The major advantage Raveners have over stealers is that as beasts they're much faster (and can blitz through terrain unimpeded for extra reliability), so you can get into combat having taken fewer shooting casualties

[nurglitch]

ranmafan gets it.

[daveclark890]

Regular stealers dont really have a place in 6th, and it seems silly to get them just to get a brood lord because you cant chuck them into combat or he will get toasted through attrition.
Ymgarls on the other hand are pretty damn versatile. Appear right on the enemy doorstep. Can take the +1 T to endure the overwatch fire and then chew through the unit (HW squad or shooty squad) against combat orientated they can go +1 attack to kill off a few more before they return strike, against harder opponents the +1 strength to assist in scything them apart is for winners.

I loved stealers in 5th and am sad they are no longer viable but I do love the usefulness of Ymgarls!

[ranmafan]

Raveners have several major weaknesses that make them unsuited for fighting most MEQs:
1. Toughness 4
2. No brood telepathy
3. No Broodlord
4. No toxin sacs
5. Low WS/I

Point 1: Anyone with a power fist, missile launcher, lascannon, hiveguard, etc. will kill them in one solid hit. You can't field that many raveners... you can go up to 20 Stealers. With Stealers, you can soak up heavy weapons fire without worrying since 1 wound is... well, one wound.

Point 2: Raveners have (please do not swear) for leadership. The instant they lose combat they run away and sometimes get swept.

Point 3: Broodlords are boss. Psyker level 1 gives you a default 5+ DtW save. They will murder anything they touch. All the other stealers are just there as ablative wounds to get a Broodlord into combat. If they roll any ONE decent psyker power they're nigh-unstoppable.

Point 4: Toxin sacs let Genestealers do something Raveners can't do - kill Monstrous Creatures/Iron Arm/Wraithlords. Yes, Raveners have Rending claws, but Stealers toxin sacs will let them just pile on the weight of wounds with Rending being a bonus, not a necessity.

Point 5: Stealers with WS6 and I6 will murder most equivalent HQs/Assault specialists while locked in combat for more than one turn. Only Eldar have anything close to those I values by default, and they're not the best hand to hand combatants by far.

I find Infiltration a good method of mitigating their lack of speed vs. the Ravener's beast traits. Despite being exposed for possibly one turn (UNLESS you go second on the first game turn - page 9, BRB. You CAN assault if you go second!) - and with a stealer brood in the opponent's face, most opponents will be torn between picking on the Stealers or the main body of the Tyranid force advancing on their positions.

Personally I use Gargoyles with Genestealers - they're cheap and move fast enough to provide the Stealers with a distraction; they either tie up the opponent for one turn and let your stealers strike at full I, or soak up firepower being an imminent threat and leave your stealers largely alone.

Where possible I normally Infiltrate my stealers close enough to the Gargoyles that they both reach the opponent at almost the same time, unless they've been lax in their deployment and let me get within 12" of their forces...

[infornography]

Seriously? You are dinging the Ravener for having "Low WS/I"? Really? 5 is not low, it is better than the VAST majority of targets and better is all you need, any extra makes no difference.

Raveners' weaknesses are low armor and average toughness.

They partially make up for that with high speed and ability to almost ignore terrain.

They don't make the cut for my lists because I run a mostly reserve list. I don't have room for foot slogging swarms. In a foot slogging swarm list though, they are effective. Not amazing, but effective.

Genestealers on the other hand die in droves to basic ranged anti-infantry weaponry. Bolters, bolt pistols, storm bolters, hurricane bolters, etc just eat them alive. The same weapons can be effective against raveners but require 3 times as many successful wound rolls to remove a model on a swarm that will spend most of it's time crossing difficult terrain as if it wasn't even there.

Really, one marine squad with bolters can remove the threat of a genestealer unit with ease without sacrificing high strength weaponry that needs to be targeting the big bugs.

I rate raveners as better than genestealers point for point in 6th edition, not by a whole lot, but enough to consider fielding them in a swarm list.

[ranmafan]

Sorry - I play against this Eldar player a bit. His high I has given me great appreciation for the Genestealers' I value. Especially the Broodlord vs. Maugen-Ra

But yeah - I guess it's up to personal preference. I've run Raveners a few times with footslogging armies, and every time they've performed poorly. They can cover the distance, but they almost always die first to concentrated antitank fire. I prefer Gargoyles and Shrikes for the same role. I'm far more used to losing Genestealers (moving through cover) and letting the Broodlord get stuck in. I field about 3-4 commando squads (5 stealers, 1 broodlord, TS)