Why Double FOC?

[retnab]

One of my GK friends showed me how he can make a list that abuses Inquisitors as dirt cheap (for GK) HQ and Troop choices and then takes 6 kitted Stormravens. Incredibly cheesy? Oh yeah. Double FOC just seems to give players an excuse to spam.

[Jabberwocky]

Jan 29, 2013 14:49:45 GMT retnab said:

One of my GK friends showed me how he can make a list that abuses Inquisitors as dirt cheap (for GK) HQ and Troop choices and then takes 6 kitted Stormravens. Incredibly cheesy? Oh yeah. Double FOC just seems to give players an excuse to spam.

GK can already bring cheese with single FOC anyway.

The idea is for 2k games to be the start of larger point games, not the end point of normal games.

[vecuu]

Jan 29, 2013 11:24:49 GMT Jabberwocky said:

You can't compare 6 HS to 3 HS though.

You have to compare it to 3 HS + 3 FA/E etc.

The units aren't free, the slots aren't free.

6 heavy units might be harsh but so are 3 and 3 flyers etc, which is available even easier with a single FOC anyway.

This is the best articulated argument for double FOC that I have ever seen.

Simple, and accurate.

[WestRider]

The problem are the Armies that can easily max out multiple FOC slots by 1K and cheaply cover the mandatory slots. IG, Orks, and Coteaz-led GK all come immediately to mind.

At 2K, with double FOC, an IG List can fill the requirements and then drop in 6 Vendettas and Manticores, with no squadroning. Just off the top of my head.

Coteaz+Cron Air gets pretty scary, too.

[coredump]

Jan 29, 2013 15:06:26 GMT Jabberwocky said:

The idea is for 2k games to be the start of larger point games, not the end point of normal games.

And I think this is the crux of the problem.

To folks in the UK, 2000 is a 'larger point game', so to allow DFOC makes sense, sort of a pseudo-apocalypse.

To folks in the US, 2000 is a 'normal point game', so DFOC seems wrong.

If the rule had been 2001+ points, I don't think it would have engendered the same response.

[infornography]

It encourages boring spammy lists.

It isn't like you can't make fun and interesting IG lists within 2000 points with guard. The FOC just limits spamming and restricts some of their more painful options slightly, but when you open it wide then the lists all start taking lots of the same things making the game less fun and certainly less varied.

Hell you have plenty of freedom with IG to make strong and interesting lists up to around 2500 points. I daresay every army did fine with a single FOC up to around 2500. They all felt the crunch a bit usually around heavy, elite, and HQ, but up to that point, they could still take everything they needed. My FLGS was quick to identify the abuse and shift toward 1850 point games to avoid it, but what I have heard about shops that embraced DFOC has made me glad we didn't. It really just turned into spamhammer 40k and that isn't the game I want to play.

[Jabberwocky]

See UK GW stores and clubs are usually 1750 per army, or 1000 per army in double games (giving you 2 FOCs at 2k) so as coredump said this is really an issue in the US.

I haven't seen complaints about the current spam available with troops though like 5 Terv? Draigowing, venom spam??

It's not like spam is new at any level really.

It seems that a themed list gets slated as spammy if it happens to be powerful. We all know though, GW doesn't think of this future abuse they only look at what themed armies become available by opening up certain slots, whether by making a unit troops or be allowing you to buy more slots.

[Space is pretty big]

Jan 30, 2013 8:10:46 GMT Jabberwocky said:

See UK GW stores and clubs are usually 1750 per army, or 1000 per army in double games (giving you 2 FOCs at 2k) so as coredump said this is really an issue in the US.

I haven't seen complaints about the current spam available with troops though like 5 Terv? Draigowing, venom spam??

It's not like spam is new at any level really.

It seems that a themed list gets slated as spammy if it happens to be powerful. We all know though, GW doesn't think of this future abuse they only look at what themed armies become available by opening up certain slots, whether by making a unit troops or be allowing you to buy more slots.

LOL, even our games of 40k are bloated and oversized compared to the rest of the world.

[Raven]

Yeah, Australian tournaments are usually around the 1500-1750 mark as well, and it'll probably stay that way thanks to games taking longer in 6th.