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Post by Illithid on Jan 18, 2013 5:18:00 GMT
I just got my hands on the 4th Ed. codex (was delivered today and I have been pouring through it) and have to say, I prefer our newer codex. Sure, there may not be 90pt Carnifex, but the book itself is nicer, more interesting stories and much more options.
Sure, to play competitive, I may not take all those options, but in friendly games, most of our stuff does quite well (yes, even the Lictor - although the old rules are impressive and I can see why people got disappointed).
This brings me back to the original point. Yes, there are some cheese out there if you combine certain things together, but I think all the writers actually create decent products. If you look at the WD, the models represented in most of the artistic pictures, the creators/designers must play fluffier armies.
They can not see how the community is going to find the little gems that break the codex. I will back this up with some examples. Yes, Space Wolves can be devastating, but again, they can be lackluster. Example is a player at a local group outside of my direct club that plays Canis Wolfborn as his HQ. He never wins a game. Same with a Necron player who only wins 50/50.
People will abuse any game system if given half the chance and with a game like 40k, there are so many possible variations and army combos that certain things are going to have unforeseeable advantages.
It is us the community who take flyer spam, Draigostar, and Venomspam to certain games, making lists that look anesthetic on the board.
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Post by glassiya on Jan 18, 2013 9:04:02 GMT
I just got my hands on the 4th Ed. codex (was delivered today and I have been pouring through it) and have to say, I prefer our newer codex. Sure, there may not be 90pt Carnifex, but the book itself is nicer, more interesting stories and much more options. no offence, but you better count them options once again.
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Post by Geneva on Jan 18, 2013 9:15:40 GMT
In the 4th Ed Tyranid codex, you essentially had five to six units in one for most options. Two squads of Warriors could be completely different. The same with Carnifexen. Most interesting of all, in casual environments two Tyranid armies could be completely different despite taking the same core units. It was essentially a lego box of an army where you could tailor your units to meet your own tastes and for that it remains one of my favourite codexes of all time, just behind 3.5 Ed CSMs.
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Post by Illithid on Jan 18, 2013 9:15:45 GMT
I know, but still much cheaper than our current carnifex.
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Post by atrocity on Jan 18, 2013 9:35:34 GMT
Ward hasn't written anything but Marines and daemons (and the Lord of the rings rulebook) to my knowledge. The rulebook for Warhammer Fantasy was written by Ward as well, which as I said, is the the best fantasy edition so far.
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Post by t⊗theark on Jan 18, 2013 10:58:43 GMT
I find majority of Ward's books are all in line with each other. You play normal GK (not Draigo-spam or netlist) and the army performs quite well. It is the gaming community that breaks the books. The same was in D+D 4th Ed. - they had to keep errata's flowing because online community would find cheesy combos. So what? From what I remember of 4th, tyranids were the big and scaries but many people I've spoken to have said that the 4th edition codex was actually pretty awesome if you didn't spam the carnifexes. Ward's fluff was actually pretty good on the one Xenos Dex he's done. I think he just gets overly propagandistic about Marines. I'd be fine with either, really. yeah, I actually liked the change to Necrons. Ward has potential and I think he's matured from his spacemarine times. I personally think Kelly is the best writer; as I am getting into DE now, I am finding a codex with barely any must-haves or never-takes, and am finding multiple fluffy competitive lists. What more could you ask?! I like the as-troops model: it increases the chance of multiple good builds. It will be interesting to see, whatever happens. I would say Kelly is a good writer but not a consistent one - Nor is Matt consistant trash. For, you see, Kelly has written Beastmen which wasn't particularly great and, as a beastmen player, thinks it's a bit smelly and Ward has Written Necrons which was actually took a risky approach to alchemy and although he didn't come up with gold, silver fetches a good price. Personally I have written lists and played with the 4th edition codex and it was fun, organic, unique. The very fact that a mod of tyranid warriors could be a sturdy gun platform or a fast glass hammer assault unit appeals to me. It is probably a vein hope and a dumb reason to lean towards Kelly but I will.
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Post by Raven on Jan 18, 2013 11:10:59 GMT
Matt Ward is a brilliant rules-writer. All units in his armies have great synergy and there are no real "bad" choices. Yes, his fluff is sometimes VERY over the top and ridiculous. However, the fluff doesn't make the army, the rules do. I disagree on the synergy. While Ward often has a few broken combos in his armies I find that he designs things to be powerful on their own rather than supporting other units. I see too many Ward lists that go: Best HQ option 3 of best elite option 4 of best troop option 3 of best fast attack/heavy support option or HQ that makes X elite troops choice 1 of best elite 4 of X 3 of best fast attack/heavy support I'd rather have something with actual synergy, like how Termagants are great when used in conjunction with Tervigons, using Gargoyles as screen for your army, while your Zoanthropes buff them with Endurance and the Swarmlord can give them furious charge, he also gives you +1 to your reserve rolls, allowing your Ymgarls to come on and devour your opponent heavy support that was shooting at your monstrous creatures, etc. That is what synergy is supposed to look like, not "I've got something for each role I need and they're good enough at it to not need any support" While you may not think the fluff is all that important, keep in mind that there are heaps of people who do think so, and chose their army just because of the fluff.
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Post by roxor08 on Jan 18, 2013 14:38:18 GMT
I think the dex is to far away to even think about yet. I just bought 3 Tervigon kits and would cry if they find their way to the shelf due to a overhaul of the dex that makes them boarderline pyrovore-esk...
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Post by Obsidorox on Jan 18, 2013 14:46:47 GMT
I don't think we could go wrong with either Kelly or Ward as the author. I liked what Ward did with the fluff of Necrons and I think the book has a lot of cool units that are more or less balanced. The annhilation barge seems a bit undercosted, and lychguard are kinda meh, but most of it seems ok. The whole necron air spam is a problem but I still think that will get knocked down a few pegs as more codecies are released for 6th ed and once some dedicated AA units are released - or at least more AA units are released.
I haven't spent as much time reading through Kelly's books, but it seems like he likes the ability to customize units pretty extensively which is nice - something I feel is lacking in the current Nid codex. The ability to put poison and furious charge on all...er 'most' (looking at you raveners) of our units is great but that's a fairly boring option and the select units we have with various guns all seem to be the same option with a slightly better statline for slightly more points. It would be nice if our next book was a little more creative with the unit upgrades - something I think either ward or kelly could provide based on what I've seen in their recent books.
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Post by biomassbob on Jan 18, 2013 20:51:02 GMT
I only started nids with the 4th edition dex (and did not play nidzilla but would agree that was OP). I found the 4th edition dex to be my favorite by far because of the customization options - that dex only needed a few units added (deathleaper, trygon (which we knew would be in the 5th edition dex) pod, venomthrope and tyranid prime being good examples), carnifex taken out of elite, lictors adjusted to be useful and cost effective, wings for hive tyrant and shrikes, a few other point adjustments and some of the biomorphs fixed so that they were better options. Would have been awesome.
Whoever does the book, I hope that kind of customization is brought back because as Genevaman said you could have similar units that operated very different from each other. Yes we have more units (too many unnecessary ones (T-fex and hive guard for example) whose roles should have been filled by the units already there), but since release there are the clear few strong units the army is built around and the many not usually chosen (very narrow and boring). I hope Ward or Kelly gets the job, and hopefully have an interest in nids, to bring some flavour back into the army, and allow the player to create the synergy he/she needs for the type of army they are playing.
And as much as I dislike the tervigon in concept and how GW/Cruddace added it into the dex, I don't wish it to go. I hope a bit more thought goes into its role, what its points should be, and they allow other gaunts to be spawned (such as hormagaunts, spinegaunts, etc).
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Post by Nightmare20 on Jan 18, 2013 21:46:33 GMT
Personally, the big win or loss comes down to if they try to utilize the units and models that already exist but balance/modify instead of just removing a few (red terror), nerfing the good ones (carnifex), and then shoehorning in overpowered/undercosted units to force us to buy a whole new army to stay competitive (trygon, hiveguard, tervigon, flyrant).
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Post by Davor on Jan 18, 2013 22:08:02 GMT
Personally, the big win or loss comes down to if they try to utilize the units and models that already exist but balance/modify instead of just removing a few (red terror), nerfing the good ones (carnifex), and then shoehorning in overpowered/undercosted units to force us to buy a whole new army to stay competitive (trygon, hiveguard, tervigon, flyrant). Points for Trygons will go up, Carnifex will go down with new options so new models will be sold. Harpies will be OMG MUST HAVES! Who knows, the Pyrovore will be usable, and the Lictor will still be meh LOL. Devilgaunts will have a major nerf since we all have them. Before it was Spinegaunts, now it's Devilgaunts. Will it be Spine Gaunts again or something else All our armies will be changed and we will either need to buy new minis or do alot of converting if you want WYSIWYG.
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Post by wisdomseyes1 on Jan 19, 2013 4:53:55 GMT
Personally, the big win or loss comes down to if they try to utilize the units and models that already exist but balance/modify instead of just removing a few (red terror), nerfing the good ones (carnifex), and then shoehorning in overpowered/undercosted units to force us to buy a whole new army to stay competitive (trygon, hiveguard, tervigon, flyrant). Points for Trygons will go up, Carnifex will go down with new options so new models will be sold. Harpies will be OMG MUST HAVES! Who knows, the Pyrovore will be usable, and the Lictor will still be meh LOL. Devilgaunts will have a major nerf since we all have them. Before it was Spinegaunts, now it's Devilgaunts. Will it be Spine Gaunts again or something else All our armies will be changed and we will either need to buy new minis or do alot of converting if you want WYSIWYG. Sounds right.
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Post by Sensei on Jan 19, 2013 5:44:38 GMT
@ Davor: Agreed ^
You can count that whoever writes the new dex, changes will alter things with a bias towards selling new models. It is a business after all.
That said, I think I would personally lean towards preferring Kelly over ward. Ignoring any past blunders, Kellys Dark Eldar codex is my favourite codex to date. It is effective, but the units also have weaknesses and are not overpowered. There are definitely some good choices, and some better options, but I don't think any of the units are unusable or never see play. Even venom spam (which I don't think was kelly's intention and is a result of gamers exploiting the rules), I think the Dark Eldar codex is very balanced. Although it can put out an ungodly amount of firepower, Venoms are still vulnerable with the addition of hull points.
Ward, although he writes good rules, tends to be OP. I'm not looking for nids to wipe anyone I play against. I want them to be a challenge, but I like my fights to be challenging too. Whenever it rolls out and whoever writes it, my only wish is that it offers balanced play that gives a player the means to win, but doesn't hand a win over just because you drop nids on the table.
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Post by rpricew on Jan 19, 2013 5:51:52 GMT
Whomever writes it... I just want to be able to field all of the units in the codex. I'll buy them, if you will just make it internally balanced and I have a reason to play them.
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